Rinzai School thread debris

[Fujikoma]

This is true... As far as being isolationist allowing one's enemies to grow stronger than oneself, but it's their country, if they want to get steamrolled by their neighbors with modern weaponry, fine. It doesn't matter whether we helped them or not, we interfered in their affairs. That would be like if I went into your house and started rearranging your furniture without permission, how would you feel?

[Nephew Twiddleton]

This is true... As far as being isolationist allowing one's enemies to grow stronger than oneself, but it's their country, if they want to get steamrolled by their neighbors with modern weaponry, fine. It doesn't matter whether we helped them or not, we interfered in their affairs. That would be like if I went into your house and started rearranging your furniture without permission, how would you feel?

Saves me the trouble.

[Fujikoma]

Come on now, you just walked in, and a stranger is in your house, and it looks like he's trying to steal your dining table, when in reality, he thinks it'd look better in the living room.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I don't really think that's how it went down in Japan.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall the US having any direct interference in Japanese affairs, other than "you buy our stuff, we buy yours"

[Cain]

Wherever trade goes, political influence follows.  If only to ensure the necessary political stability and economic conditions to continue that trade.

[Fujikoma]

First off, the Japanese had some issues with Europeans. Christians would sail into their ports, offering to trade goods, which, they liked, and spreading their religion like some kind of disease, which, they didn't like, because as we know full well Christianity has its roots as an aggressive monotheistic patriarchal desert religion (not that the Japanese were relatively saints or anything), and once it sinks its teeth in, it never really lets go. This has destroyed countless religions and cultures over the years and even had the balls to burn down the Library of Alexandria (according to some accounts), so I don't really blame them for being untrustworthy.

Secondly, the actions of Perry indirectly destroyed a 400 year old system of government. It may not have looked ideal, but before the unification of Japan (Oda Nobunaga began it, but when forced to commit suicide by Akechi Mitsuhide (for murdering Mitsuhide's aunt, of all things, he was known as the "Demon King" for a reason, and he LIKED Christians) Tokugawa Ieyasu took the reigns, killing Mitsuhide for his betrayal and unifying the rest of Japan, resulting in 400 years of relative peace in a land known for being in a perpetual state of war. The Japanese had lost trust in the Shogun as a result of trade relations being established by force, and so he was overthrown (no, I'm not saying Ieyasu lived 400 years).

This led directly Meiji Restoration, the emperor being recognized as the leader of Japan, and the industrialization of Japan, the strengthening of the military, and the inevitable drive to expand. The Japanese have an old bit of mythology that indicates them as the descendants of the gods, and the emperor's line of the sun goddess, Amaterasu Omikami... It's not hard to imagine how those who believe themselves to be descended from the gods might come to see themselves as the destined rulers of the earth.

The Japanese felt violated, helpless, I'm sure, when admiral Perry came in and forced their ports open. The Shogun, whos duties include matters of national security, was ultimately the one to blame. The rapid expansion, the military build up, had we tried to ease our way in rather than going whole hog, maybe the whole thing could've been avoided, but I get the feeling that when someone brought up the whole "Pearl Harbor" idea that some thought it a pretty good idea to "get those fuckers back". This led to more loss of human life on both sides, but hey, we got to test our nukes on living people! Who else gets to say that? And as an indirect result, we now know what tentacle porn is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokugawa_shogunate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oda_Nobunaga
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akechi_Mitsuhide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaterasu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Tokugawa_shogunate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Restoration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_militarism

EDIT: I used "first off" twice. A sign I should stop posting as I've had a little too much to drink. Time for video games.

[Cain]

Nobunga always got a bad rap, IMO.  He was cunning and dangerous, for sure, but usually those who are the most cunning and dangerous are actually the least problem as leaders, as they are smart enough to recognize the basic facts necessary to continue in their current position (so beautifully outlined by Machiavelli) and confident enough to be able to carry out reforms without feeling threatened on some psychological level.

It's very easy to pin the blame on a dead man when consolidating an Empire, is all I'm saying. 

[Doktor Howl]

First off, the actions of Perry indirectly destroyed a 400 year old system of government.

Good.  It needed lancing.

[Fujikoma]

You know, I used to hate Nobunaga a long time ago, but you're right, Cain. He was cunning and ruthless, qualities highly prized in many parts of the world.

And Doktor Howl, why did it need lancing?

[Doktor Howl]

And Doktor Howl, why did it need lancing?

The common man had no rights at all.  Not even the right not to be killed out of hand without any form of due process.

I feel as bad for those poor samurai as I do for those poor Mexica, who just wanted to chop peoples' hearts out.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

And Doktor Howl, why did it need lancing?

The common man had no rights at all.  Not even the right not to be killed out of hand without any form of due process.

I feel as bad for those poor samurai as I do for those poor Mexica, who just wanted to chop peoples' hearts out.

I'm with you on this. Let's take another example with St. Patrick.
Crap, now we're all Christians, and what's more the particular sect is sometimes a politically divisive issue for some people.
On the bright side, the tribes of Roscommon aren't going to break into my grandfather's house, burn it to the ground and sacrifice him to the Morrigan. Oh, and he can read and write too. And after Mass he gets to go to the pub and have a couple of pints with his buddies or have a friendly card game.

Thanks St. Patrick!

Hey, the British Empire is brutal and everyone hates their guts. But guess what? When Apu dies, Manjula won't have to throw herself on the funeral pyre. Man that would be a depressing episode of the Simpsons. Oh, yeah, and you don't really have to worry about that Thuggee sect jumping out and strangling you to death because Kali likes it when you kill random people. And all because the British just wanted to have a monopoly on India's resources.

Thanks British Empire!

Oh, shit, Napoleon's conquering most of Europe, wtf?!?!? Hey guess what guys, these French have some crazy ideas about democracy and human rights! Let's have an election!

Thanks Napoleon!

I guess cultural interference and imperialism aren't always a bad thing.

[minuspace]

so...  when everything else fails?

[Nephew Twiddleton]

so...  when everything else fails?

Could you expand on that question?

[minuspace]

President Regan, excusing violence, on Machiavellian terms: what the naive might deem "Political Realism"

[Triple Zero]

learning fails for some...