Living The Dream: What Do You Own – Really?

[The Rev]

I guess in a lot of ways in the discussion we're having here it's worth rememberig that ownership is not physical or objective. I feel like I own more than many of you. I own my time; I rent t to the government for money and favors. I own my house (it's rented) so far as it represents my needs and I have possenrion of it by being in it. I own my thoughts; even if they're derivative of other things, a person with only sprout al thought is, you know, detached from reality, and I tend to know who I want to let in or not.

To own something, you decide to feel as though you own it.
Of course, this is not the case in the legal sense of the OP.

If you weren't renting your time in exchange for money and favors, how would you eat and retain possession of the house? To me, ownership of your house is physical, to a degree. While it will never be completely owned, just unencumbered by a mortgage possibly, fail to pay your annual rent to the government and see exactly what you own.

Renting your time for money and favors reeks of prostitution.  Don't misunderstand me, to have comforts it has to be done, but thinking you own your time sounds, to me, like denial of reality.

[Placid Dingo]

I guess in a lot of ways in the discussion we're having here it's worth rememberig that ownership is not physical or objective. I feel like I own more than many of you. I own my time; I rent t to the government for money and favors. I own my house (it's rented) so far as it represents my needs and I have possenrion of it by being in it. I own my thoughts; even if they're derivative of other things, a person with only sprout al thought is, you know, detached from reality, and I tend to know who I want to let in or not.

To own something, you decide to feel as though you own it.
Of course, this is not the case in the legal sense of the OP.

If you weren't renting your time in exchange for money and favors, how would you eat and retain possession of the house? To me, ownership of your house is physical, to a degree. While it will never be completely owned, just unencumbered by a mortgage possibly, fail to pay your annual rent to the government and see exactly what you own.

Renting your time for money and favors reeks of prostitution.  Don't misunderstand me, to have comforts it has to be done, but thinking you own your time sounds, to me, like denial of reality.

This whole thing seems completely fucking stupid. If I buy a phone and it spams me and breaks and cuts out and is generally a piece of shit, it is STILL MY PHONE.

If my time is used doing stuff that other people want me to do, even if my job sucks, I still own my time.

If I have to put my elbow on my nose to be able to use my phone to call my great aunt Amanda, the phone sucks. BUT IT IS STILL MY PHONE.

If I have to spend my time folding 100 fucking pizza boxes to get paid, well that's a lame way to spend my time. BUT it's a lame way to spend MY TIME.

I'm arguing against the habit of people volunteering away their SENSE OF OWNERSHIP by deciding that things that aren't working for them simply AREN'T THEIRS. Yes, you may have a MILLION shitty impositions on your time. BUT you have a million impositions on YOUR TIME, not on your bosses. Unless you want to give it up in your mind.

Talking about Mortgages; well that's where we're leaving the zone of perception reality and moving into the zone of legal realities, which I already pointed out I wasn't referring to.

[The Rev]

I guess in a lot of ways in the discussion we're having here it's worth rememberig that ownership is not physical or objective. I feel like I own more than many of you. I own my time; I rent t to the government for money and favors. I own my house (it's rented) so far as it represents my needs and I have possenrion of it by being in it. I own my thoughts; even if they're derivative of other things, a person with only sprout al thought is, you know, detached from reality, and I tend to know who I want to let in or not.

To own something, you decide to feel as though you own it.
Of course, this is not the case in the legal sense of the OP.

If you weren't renting your time in exchange for money and favors, how would you eat and retain possession of the house? To me, ownership of your house is physical, to a degree. While it will never be completely owned, just unencumbered by a mortgage possibly, fail to pay your annual rent to the government and see exactly what you own.

Renting your time for money and favors reeks of prostitution.  Don't misunderstand me, to have comforts it has to be done, but thinking you own your time sounds, to me, like denial of reality.

This whole thing seems completely fucking stupid. If I buy a phone and it spams me and breaks and cuts out and is generally a piece of shit, it is STILL MY PHONE.

If my time is used doing stuff that other people want me to do, even if my job sucks, I still own my time.

If I have to put my elbow on my nose to be able to use my phone to call my great aunt Amanda, the phone sucks. BUT IT IS STILL MY PHONE.

If I have to spend my time folding 100 fucking pizza boxes to get paid, well that's a lame way to spend my time. BUT it's a lame way to spend MY TIME.

I'm arguing against the habit of people volunteering away their SENSE OF OWNERSHIP by deciding that things that aren't working for them simply AREN'T THEIRS. Yes, you may have a MILLION shitty impositions on your time. BUT you have a million impositions on YOUR TIME, not on your bosses. Unless you want to give it up in your mind.

Talking about Mortgages; well that's where we're leaving the zone of perception reality and moving into the zone of legal realities, which I already pointed out I wasn't referring to.

Of course you can own things like a phone. No brainer there.

I guess to me, that if you owned your time then you would be doing things you wanted to do, instead of things you have to do to survive. It is also unattainable unless one is independently wealthy.

As far as the perception that you own things that belong to someone else, well, that is very much like wearing rose colored glasses, isn't it?

[Placid Dingo]

I guess in a lot of ways in the discussion we're having here it's worth rememberig that ownership is not physical or objective. I feel like I own more than many of you. I own my time; I rent t to the government for money and favors. I own my house (it's rented) so far as it represents my needs and I have possenrion of it by being in it. I own my thoughts; even if they're derivative of other things, a person with only sprout al thought is, you know, detached from reality, and I tend to know who I want to let in or not.

To own something, you decide to feel as though you own it.
Of course, this is not the case in the legal sense of the OP.

If you weren't renting your time in exchange for money and favors, how would you eat and retain possession of the house? To me, ownership of your house is physical, to a degree. While it will never be completely owned, just unencumbered by a mortgage possibly, fail to pay your annual rent to the government and see exactly what you own.

Renting your time for money and favors reeks of prostitution.  Don't misunderstand me, to have comforts it has to be done, but thinking you own your time sounds, to me, like denial of reality.

This whole thing seems completely fucking stupid. If I buy a phone and it spams me and breaks and cuts out and is generally a piece of shit, it is STILL MY PHONE.

If my time is used doing stuff that other people want me to do, even if my job sucks, I still own my time.

If I have to put my elbow on my nose to be able to use my phone to call my great aunt Amanda, the phone sucks. BUT IT IS STILL MY PHONE.

If I have to spend my time folding 100 fucking pizza boxes to get paid, well that's a lame way to spend my time. BUT it's a lame way to spend MY TIME.

I'm arguing against the habit of people volunteering away their SENSE OF OWNERSHIP by deciding that things that aren't working for them simply AREN'T THEIRS. Yes, you may have a MILLION shitty impositions on your time. BUT you have a million impositions on YOUR TIME, not on your bosses. Unless you want to give it up in your mind.

Talking about Mortgages; well that's where we're leaving the zone of perception reality and moving into the zone of legal realities, which I already pointed out I wasn't referring to.

Of course you can own things like a phone. No brainer there.

I guess to me, that if you owned your time then you would be doing things you wanted to do, instead of things you have to do to survive. It is also unattainable unless one is independently wealthy.

As far as the perception that you own things that belong to someone else, well, that is very much like wearing rose colored glasses, isn't it?

If I own my own time = I can do whatever I want, then sure, by your specific definition most people don't own their own time.

Seeing as there's no physical reality associated with 'owning' your own 'time', I just find the choice of such a definition silly.

[Scribbly]

The most insidious evil is being convinced that you have no choice. You always have a choice.

You choose to spend your time in the way you spend it. If you choose to just walk away from your job, you'll suffer the consequences of that; but it is still a choice.

This puts the responsibility squarely back onto your shoulders. You conduct a cost/benefit analysis and decide that the shitiness you put up with at work is worth the hardship that would be incurred by walking away.

This is still your choice. You don't get to pass the buck up in some nebulous way. You own that responsibility.

[The Rev]

The most insidious evil is being convinced that you have no choice. You always have a choice.

You choose to spend your time in the way you spend it. If you choose to just walk away from your job, you'll suffer the consequences of that; but it is still a choice.

This puts the responsibility squarely back onto your shoulders. You conduct a cost/benefit analysis and decide that the shitiness you put up with at work is worth the hardship that would be incurred by walking away.

This is still your choice. You don't get to pass the buck up in some nebulous way. You own that responsibility.

I agree that there are choices. I agree that there are responsibilities associated with those choices. There is necessity as well, and that generally trumps a lot of choices. I choose to eat, therefore I work. I choose to have a roof over my head, therefore I work.

Do you think that the depth of the luxury we choose can determine how much of ourselves we are willing to sell in order to have those things? Do we need that 4000 sq. ft house or would a 2000 sq ft house work just as well? Do we need a 65 inch flat screen tv or just a tv?

I do think that we have been conditioned to sell ourselves, under the guise of the American Dream. Once we start doing that, then we have chosen to waive many choices, haven't we?

[Scribbly]

Being a biped means breaking that conditioning.

You can no more give up your choice than you can give up your free will; that's essentially what you are saying, and there is no ultimate authority over your decisions other than you.

That said, there's no shame in doing a bad job to get the things you want; it is a decision that you make. But you don't get to pass the blame for it on to anyone else, which is what claiming you have 'no choice' really means.

[The Rev]

Being a biped means breaking that conditioning.

You can no more give up your choice than you can give up your free will; that's essentially what you are saying, and there is no ultimate authority over your decisions other than you.

That said, there's no shame in doing a bad job to get the things you want; it is a decision that you make. But you don't get to pass the blame for it on to anyone else, which is what claiming you have 'no choice' really means.

Now this is interesting!

Have you ever heard someone say "I can't quit my job, we'll lose everything!" Is this not giving up your choice, or are you saying it is simply another kind of choice?

[Scribbly]

It is a choice. They even say it is a choice.

'I can't give up my job, I'll lose everything'

... yes. You've looked at it, and decided that everything you have is worth continuing in the job you dislike.

That is a perfectly sensible choice, but it is still a decision they've made.

[The Rev]

It is a choice. They even say it is a choice.

'I can't give up my job, I'll lose everything'

... yes. You've looked at it, and decided that everything you have is worth continuing in the job you dislike.

That is a perfectly sensible choice, but it is still a decision they've made.

Okay, I think so far we are in agreement. Do you agree that those choices can be taken from us? "You're fired."

[Cramulus]

I guess to me, that if you owned your time then you would be doing things you wanted to do, instead of things you have to do to survive. It is also unattainable unless one is independently wealthy.

Only if the "things you want to do" involve money.

Your juxtaposition with capitalism is in part a personal matter.

It is not money which is the prison, but the ego.

[The Rev]

I guess to me, that if you owned your time then you would be doing things you wanted to do, instead of things you have to do to survive. It is also unattainable unless one is independently wealthy.

Only if the "things you want to do" involve money.

Your juxtaposition with capitalism is in part a personal matter.

It is not money which is the prison, but the ego.

How about eating? Isn't that more survival instead of ego?

[Cramulus]

yes, you have to eat

if you see that as a prison, I'm not sure what you consider freedom 

[Scribbly]

Food is the most addictive drug in the world, man.

Withdrawal symptoms are a bitch.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I guess to me, that if you owned your time then you would be doing things you wanted to do, instead of things you have to do to survive. It is also unattainable unless one is independently wealthy.

Only if the "things you want to do" involve money.

Your juxtaposition with capitalism is in part a personal matter.

It is not money which is the prison, but the ego.

How do you propose surviving without money? Where will you live, and what will you eat?