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TESTEMONAIL:  Right and Discordianism allows room for personal interpretation. You have your theories and I have mine. Unlike Christianity, Discordia allows room for ideas and opinions, and mine is well-informed and based on ancient philosophy and theology, so, my neo-Discordian friends, open your minds to my interpretation and I will open my mind to yours. That's fair enough, right? Just claiming to be discordian should mean that your mind is open and willing to learn and share ideas. You guys are fucking bashing me and your laughing at my theologies and my friends know what's up and are laughing at you and honestly this is my last shot at putting a label on my belief structure and your making me lose all hope of ever finding a ideological group I can relate to because you don't even know what the fuck I'm talking about and everything I have said is based on the founding principals of real Discordianism. Expand your mind.

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E-Democracy

Started by Captain Utopia, July 21, 2010, 02:58:13 PM

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AFK

Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 24, 2010, 04:21:08 PM
Quote from: RWHN on July 24, 2010, 12:43:31 PM
Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 23, 2010, 11:17:17 PM
Quote from: RWHN on July 23, 2010, 08:20:46 PM
Funny story.  So we have an alcohol enforcement officer here in my community.  A big chunk of his salary was coming from the state office of substance abuse.  they announced that funding was shriveling like a prune.  We discovered we weren't going to have enough money to pay for the officer.  We contacted our state senator, told her the story.  Through the magic of the legislation process, she found a pot of money to funnel to the police department so that work could continue.  Want to take a guess at how long all that took? 

I not saying that all old is bad and all new is good.  Certainly, I expect the kind of interaction you describe happens all the time.

So why do you want to turn it on its ear?

I don't.  Two paragraphs later I explain why I think it would be awesome that people with connections could still use them, while bringing some of that utility to a wider audience.

But the wider audience has those connections already.  They just don't use them.  You model does nothing to alleviate that.  It makes the assumption that people will show up.  It doesn't explain how you get them to show up and participate in the first place. 


Quote
Quote from: RWHN on July 24, 2010, 12:43:31 PM
The problem isn't the system.  The problem is the people using, or not using, the system.  Your socialogical experiment may or may not change the mindset of some people, but at what cost?

Please see my last response to Kai.

Neato.  Now answer MY question. 

Quote
Quote from: RWHN on July 24, 2010, 12:43:31 PM
That's why I say, and will stand firm on this, your eneregy is much better spent designing programs and initiatives to mobilize people.  To get them to be more engaged.

The current system is designed to limit decision making privileges to monied external forces while creating a pleasant illusion of control for the electorate.  The current system is designed to extract the maximum amount of milk from a docile herd.

But under your system, the Senators and Reps are still there right?  So you aren't changing that part at all.  But now you are throwing a monkey wrench into the state and local systems which actually do allow a fair amount of influence on the part of the citizenry.  And again, in the process, you are leaving people behind. 

Quote
Quote from: RWHN on July 24, 2010, 12:43:31 PM
You are making a huge assumption that just because it is online and people get to vote more often, tht this is somehow going to make them more active.

Why is that a huge assumption, and not just obvious?

Because it is already incredibly easy for someone to vote and have their voice heard.  Especially in states with absentee voting.  You can practically vote any time you want now.  Your system may be cool and novel for the 20 something Facebookers, but you are kidding yourself if you think that is an actual legitimate representation of the entire country, or even an entire community.  There are only certain segments of the population who will key into this. 

What about the elderly?  How are you going to make sure they are represented when they aren't exactly hip with computers? 


Quote
Quote from: RWHN on July 24, 2010, 12:43:31 PM
And then I really think you are copping out by putting in this proxy idea.  So that the people who don't want to to vote just give up their vote to someone else.

That is a misrepresentation.  Proxy-voting would work in two distinct ways - either you proxy your entire vote, or you identify specific types of issues for which you think an acquaintance in your social network or a known leader could make a better decision than yourself.

You mean, *gasp* a person to represent your vote?  Why does that sound familiar?  Hmmm......

QuoteIt would be rare to proxy your entire vote, even children playing with the system would be unlikely to proxy their vote to their parents for very long.

What do you mean by "entire vote".  How does someone make half a vote?  That doesn't make a lick of sense. 

Quote
Quote from: RWHN on July 24, 2010, 12:43:31 PM
The corruption issues aside, that would tend to breed more apathy.  Plus, I can just see people scalping their votes.  More corruption.

Take Health Care reform.  In 2009, $1.4 billion was spent in lobbying.  So let's see roughly what the average bribe would be if you instead spent that money trying to convince half the population of the US to sell their vote.

  $1,400,000,000 / (307,006,550 / 2) = $9.12

Nine dollars and twelve cents.  For every person who would demand $20, you'd need to find two willing to accept $5.  But since every vote is equal, once word got out that some people were getting $20, it'd become a sellers market.  Anyone who accepted less would increase the pot for the remainder.

Open Secrets pegs the total amount spent on lobbying in 2009 as $3.49 billion -- healthcare was an extraordinary single chunk of that.  So for regular day-to-day voting issues, the pot would be much smaller.  In fact, this is how much an average American could expect to make in bribes in such a system:

  $3,490,000,000 / 307,006,550 = $11.37

Do you really believe that corruption would be a big issue?

Your red herring aside.  Yes, I do.  If Organization X wants to pass Proposition 23, and it knows that under this proxy bullshit someone is able to give up their vote to someone else or some organization, there will be massive incentive to try to buy those votes and to corral them.  Especially if they can get them for cheap.  And it will all be under the table and very hard to prove. 




QuoteWould having smaller issues to vote upon increase or decrease the motivation to corrupt the system?

Would having smaller issues to vote upon increase or decrease the number of people who hold that motivation?

That question isn't even based in reality.  You have no control over whether issues are small or large unless somehow you are able to harness and drive society itself.  Healthcare was huge because it was neglected for many decades. 

QuoteEven if selling your vote was made legal - improbable, but I'll grant possible - could such an enterprise be pulled off without it becoming public knowledge?
  Would selling your vote be stigma neutral?

If selling your vote was made legal, we'd be even more fucked than we already are.  Corporations would amass even more power than they already have. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

AFK

Captain Utopia,

I'd like to issue you a little challenge.  Can you produce research that actually validates any of your theories?  In my world, aka the real world, policy initiatives need to be evidence based.  It needs to be more than just a philosophy, you need to be able to cite and prove the assertions you make.  What research do you have that would suggest that this system would actually result in a system that was more conducive to participation and better representation in the public policy arena. 

Can you do that? 

If not, I'm out of this.  Because honestly, while I commend your creativity, this is fantasy land stuff for all the reasons I've mentioned in this thread.  I see no basis in reality how this would work to serve the people better than they are served now. 
Cynicism is a blank check for failure.

Doktor Howl

Molon Lube

Cain

LOL @ RWHN calling someone out on theories which have little empirical grounding.

LOL, I say.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Cain on December 30, 2014, 02:20:28 PM
LOL @ RWHN calling someone out on theories which have little empirical grounding.

LOL, I say.

Still giggling.   :lol:
Molon Lube

LMNO

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 21, 2010, 08:04:31 PM
Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 21, 2010, 07:59:08 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 21, 2010, 07:41:32 PM
Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 21, 2010, 07:36:17 PM
If, in fact, a majority of Californians decide they don't want gay marriage, then I'd still try to change their minds, but I'd accept that decision in the meantime.

No problem.  I don't like you having freedom of assembly, or speech for that matter.  If I can get enough people to agree with me, should I be able to keep you from meeting with associates or speaking your mind?

Yeah, why the hell not?  The only thing stopping you from doing that today, is the same thing which would stop you tomorrow - the difficulty in convincing a majority that it is a good thing.


So we toss out the rule of law. 

Oh, yeah.  That'll work.  The next cycle of conservativism that hits America would lead to more fun than you could shake a truncheon at.


Dok Howl seems to be Propheteering again.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 21, 2010, 08:04:31 PM
Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 21, 2010, 07:59:08 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 21, 2010, 07:41:32 PM
Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 21, 2010, 07:36:17 PM
If, in fact, a majority of Californians decide they don't want gay marriage, then I'd still try to change their minds, but I'd accept that decision in the meantime.

No problem.  I don't like you having freedom of assembly, or speech for that matter.  If I can get enough people to agree with me, should I be able to keep you from meeting with associates or speaking your mind?

Yeah, why the hell not?  The only thing stopping you from doing that today, is the same thing which would stop you tomorrow - the difficulty in convincing a majority that it is a good thing.


So we toss out the rule of law. 

Oh, yeah.  That'll work.  The next cycle of conservativism that hits America would lead to more fun than you could shake a truncheon at.


PROPHECY.
Molon Lube

LMNO


Cramulus

WOW, as soon as I saw this thread....  :horrormirth:



But related to the topic --- did you guys see that Maine adopted Instant Runoff Voting? Can't believe it's actually a Thing now.



Doktor Howl

Molon Lube

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Jasper on July 21, 2010, 10:11:50 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 21, 2010, 09:39:10 PM
But nobody elects them.  Why?  Possibly because of brainwashing, but another possibility is that just because the 3rd parties are funnier, doesn't mean they're better.

Duverger's Law.  No exceptions.

I dunno though.  Is the green party really that hysterical compared to dems or repubs?

BUMP  :lulz:
Molon Lube

lexi

I thought that it might be fun to catch up on this thread and see how those ideas held up 10 years later.

I couldn't make it halfway through the first post without boring myself senseless.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: LMNO on December 30, 2014, 03:51:09 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 21, 2010, 08:04:31 PM
Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 21, 2010, 07:59:08 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 21, 2010, 07:41:32 PM
Quote from: Captain Utopia on July 21, 2010, 07:36:17 PM
If, in fact, a majority of Californians decide they don't want gay marriage, then I'd still try to change their minds, but I'd accept that decision in the meantime.

No problem.  I don't like you having freedom of assembly, or speech for that matter.  If I can get enough people to agree with me, should I be able to keep you from meeting with associates or speaking your mind?

Yeah, why the hell not?  The only thing stopping you from doing that today, is the same thing which would stop you tomorrow - the difficulty in convincing a majority that it is a good thing.


So we toss out the rule of law. 

Oh, yeah.  That'll work.  The next cycle of conservativism that hits America would lead to more fun than you could shake a truncheon at.


Dok Howl seems to be Propheteering again.

AND YA DON'T STOP
Molon Lube

lexi

Yeah, that didn't hold up so well.

LMNO

I didn't go through the whole thing again, but I'm kind of ashamed that even after 5 pages, no one brought up the simple fact that this relies on having an internet connection and the technology to use it, instantly disenfranchising the most vulnerable poor.