The Secret Histories, #1

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

in my ear right now, millions of white blood cells are fighting millions of bacteria. A few days ago, the war against the ear infection was won, though smaller battles would continue until all the bacteria has been purged.

Perhaps one of these white blood cells was there at the tipping point, perhaps it performed some heroic act of self sacrifice which tipped the scales against the infection. Perhaps its particular tactics were instrumental in victory. But I do not thank that individual blood cell for its contributions to the war.

That is incredibly weak.

And Dr. Brown is riding the correct motorcycle!

[Kai]

this has been a great discussion to read.

I have little to add. What can I say about our quickening spiral into the hole at the bottom of the toilet? It has a sort of inevitable quality. I wonder what the mood in high rome was before it got sacked and burned. Was it grim and hopeless with a dash of hope? Was there a feeling of business as usual? It makes me feel a bit helpless.

I think there's hope at the two ends of the spectrum:

1. Becoming super individualized - detaching completely from the collective Me, forgetting about all the large systems I'm participating in, focusing entirely on the stuff in my immediate world. Because it's a lot easier to not give a shit about the plutonomy if all I have to worry about is my paycheck, my rent, my bullshit. One can stop watching TV, consuming news, participating in politics, and these problems will vanish too. From a certain subjective perspective.

2. Dropping this pesky individuality and identifying with the collective. All the drama we're experiencing at the personal level is just our ego. In the greater scheme of things, everything I think, do, believe, become, is just a drop of water in the ocean. It's irrelevant. It's microscopic. We can only ever hope to accomplish anything by sacrificing the self and joining a collective organism, facilitating the greater forces present in our society to work through us.


maybe!

I disagree. What you are stating above is a black and white false dilemma, not optimal, and it doesn't even cut to the point of the problem: that humans have a much greater capacity for awareness and rationality than they actually use on a regular basis. The above don't even address the problem. How does removing awareness in item one increase awareness? How does sacrificing the self increase awareness and rationality? Neither are answers. You might have well said "god will solve it".

in my ear right now, millions of white blood cells are fighting millions of bacteria. A few days ago, the war against the ear infection was won, though smaller battles would continue until all the bacteria has been purged.

Perhaps one of these white blood cells was there at the tipping point, perhaps it performed some heroic act of self sacrifice which tipped the scales against the infection. Perhaps its particular tactics were instrumental in victory. But I do not thank that individual blood cell for its contributions to the war.

WRONG LEVEL OF ORGANIZATION. You don't thank quarks and leptons either, yet everything, absolutely everything, is composed of quarks and leptons.

Jesus. Christ. On a motherfucking pogo stick.

[Phineas T. Poxwattle]

You seem to be confusing personal choices with individualism. I see an individual as not being afraid to look at things from a different perspective, one who is willing to risk failure in order to achieve success.

I am not suggesting that personal choices and risk management are holding us back... one can make personal choices and take risks within a group.

But if on an individual level, we are dissatisfied with our environment, or level of control over that environment, and there seems to be no escape from it, we may gain a better perspective by detaching from the things which are giving us the most pain - our bank account, our cultural aesthetics, our pathetic and increasingly diminished role in this democracy contraption. All the bullshit which fills our lives and distracts us from the larger canvas.

True, seeing ourselves as part of a tribe has brought us the wonders of dogmatic belief, Us vs. Them and the resulting religions and wars... all sorts of great stuff.

The war cry of the ego: "I am stronger without the tribe!"

Isn't it the tribal mindset which keeps families together? Which keeps an organization moving? Yes there are dangers to throwing aside the ego, just as there are dangers in individualism. Isn't a pragmatic approach more useful than refusing to orient onto a collective? Could we be castrating ourselves by getting lost in these microscopic details?



this is discordian blasphemy, but I think some rocks deserve to be looked under

[Adios]

this has been a great discussion to read.

I have little to add. What can I say about our quickening spiral into the hole at the bottom of the toilet? It has a sort of inevitable quality. I wonder what the mood in high rome was before it got sacked and burned. Was it grim and hopeless with a dash of hope? Was there a feeling of business as usual? It makes me feel a bit helpless.

I think there's hope at the two ends of the spectrum:

1. Becoming super individualized - detaching completely from the collective Me, forgetting about all the large systems I'm participating in, focusing entirely on the stuff in my immediate world. Because it's a lot easier to not give a shit about the plutonomy if all I have to worry about is my paycheck, my rent, my bullshit. One can stop watching TV, consuming news, participating in politics, and these problems will vanish too. From a certain subjective perspective.

2. Dropping this pesky individuality and identifying with the collective. All the drama we're experiencing at the personal level is just our ego. In the greater scheme of things, everything I think, do, believe, become, is just a drop of water in the ocean. It's irrelevant. It's microscopic. We can only ever hope to accomplish anything by sacrificing the self and joining a collective organism, facilitating the greater forces present in our society to work through us.


maybe!

I disagree. What you are stating above is a black and white false dilemma, not optimal, and it doesn't even cut to the point of the problem: that humans have a much greater capacity for awareness and rationality than they actually use on a regular basis. The above don't even address the problem. How does removing awareness in item one increase awareness? How does sacrificing the self increase awareness and rationality? Neither are answers. You might have well said "god will solve it".

in my ear right now, millions of white blood cells are fighting millions of bacteria. A few days ago, the war against the ear infection was won, though smaller battles would continue until all the bacteria has been purged.

Perhaps one of these white blood cells was there at the tipping point, perhaps it performed some heroic act of self sacrifice which tipped the scales against the infection. Perhaps its particular tactics were instrumental in victory. But I do not thank that individual blood cell for its contributions to the war.

WRONG LEVEL OF ORGANIZATION. You don't thank quarks and leptons either, yet everything, absolutely everything, is composed of quarks and leptons.

Jesus. Christ. On a motherfucking pogo stick.

Kai........

[President Television]

in my ear right now, millions of white blood cells are fighting millions of bacteria. A few days ago, the war against the ear infection was won, though smaller battles would continue until all the bacteria has been purged.

Perhaps one of these white blood cells was there at the tipping point, perhaps it performed some heroic act of self sacrifice which tipped the scales against the infection. Perhaps its particular tactics were instrumental in victory. But I do not thank that individual blood cell for its contributions to the war.

White blood cells aren't complex enough to be capable of any tactics at all, much less forming an individual identity. Consider that a single white blood cell is smaller than some neurons. Your comparison doesn't apply.

[Adios]

You seem to be confusing personal choices with individualism. I see an individual as not being afraid to look at things from a different perspective, one who is willing to risk failure in order to achieve success.

I am not suggesting that personal choices and risk management are holding us back... one can make personal choices and take risks within a group.

But if on an individual level, we are dissatisfied with our environment, or level of control over that environment, and there seems to be no escape from it, we may gain a better perspective by detaching from the things which are giving us the most pain - our bank account, our cultural aesthetics, our pathetic and increasingly diminished role in this democracy contraption. All the bullshit which fills our lives and distracts us from the larger canvas.

True, seeing ourselves as part of a tribe has brought us the wonders of dogmatic belief, Us vs. Them and the resulting religions and wars... all sorts of great stuff.

The war cry of the ego: "I am stronger without the tribe!"

Isn't it the tribal mindset which keeps families together? Which keeps an organization moving? Yes there are dangers to throwing aside the ego, just as there are dangers in individualism. Isn't a pragmatic approach more useful than refusing to orient onto a collective? Could we be castrating ourselves by getting lost in these microscopic details?



this is discordian blasphemy, but I think some rocks deserve to be looked under

What the fuck are you blabbering about?

[Kai]

in my ear right now, millions of white blood cells are fighting millions of bacteria. A few days ago, the war against the ear infection was won, though smaller battles would continue until all the bacteria has been purged.

Perhaps one of these white blood cells was there at the tipping point, perhaps it performed some heroic act of self sacrifice which tipped the scales against the infection. Perhaps its particular tactics were instrumental in victory. But I do not thank that individual blood cell for its contributions to the war.

White blood cells aren't complex enough to be capable of any tactics at all, much less forming an individual identity. Consider that a single white blood cell is smaller than some neurons. Your comparison doesn't apply.

It's not that they aren't complex enough (whatever that might mean), but that they aren't autonomous, never have been autonomous, and its the wrong level of organization. Yes yes, lets compare human societies to FLUID DYNAMICS AND QUANTUM MECHANICS! THAT TOTALLY MAKES SENSE.

[President Television]

You seem to be confusing personal choices with individualism. I see an individual as not being afraid to look at things from a different perspective, one who is willing to risk failure in order to achieve success.

I am not suggesting that personal choices and risk management are holding us back... one can make personal choices and take risks within a group.

But if on an individual level, we are dissatisfied with our environment, or level of control over that environment, and there seems to be no escape from it, we may gain a better perspective by detaching from the things which are giving us the most pain - our bank account, our cultural aesthetics, our pathetic and increasingly diminished role in this democracy contraption. All the bullshit which fills our lives and distracts us from the larger canvas.

True, seeing ourselves as part of a tribe has brought us the wonders of dogmatic belief, Us vs. Them and the resulting religions and wars... all sorts of great stuff.

The war cry of the ego: "I am stronger without the tribe!"

Isn't it the tribal mindset which keeps families together? Which keeps an organization moving? Yes there are dangers to throwing aside the ego, just as there are dangers in individualism. Isn't a pragmatic approach more useful than refusing to orient onto a collective? Could we be castrating ourselves by getting lost in these microscopic details?



this is discordian blasphemy, but I think some rocks deserve to be looked under

This absolutism is moronic. Individualism doesn't mean divorcing yourself from the rest of humanity, it means existing as a single consciousness within society and making decisions based on critical thought. It doesn't mean being short-sighted and seeing only to your own needs, it means being compassionate by your own choice. If you choose to be, anyway.

in my ear right now, millions of white blood cells are fighting millions of bacteria. A few days ago, the war against the ear infection was won, though smaller battles would continue until all the bacteria has been purged.

Perhaps one of these white blood cells was there at the tipping point, perhaps it performed some heroic act of self sacrifice which tipped the scales against the infection. Perhaps its particular tactics were instrumental in victory. But I do not thank that individual blood cell for its contributions to the war.

White blood cells aren't complex enough to be capable of any tactics at all, much less forming an individual identity. Consider that a single white blood cell is smaller than some neurons. Your comparison doesn't apply.

It's not that they aren't complex enough (whatever that might mean), but that they aren't autonomous, never have been autonomous, and its the wrong level of organization. Yes yes, lets compare human societies to FLUID DYNAMICS AND QUANTUM MECHANICS! THAT TOTALLY MAKES SENSE.

What I meant is that a white blood cell doesn't have any kind of neurological mechanism.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

True, seeing ourselves as part of a tribe has brought us the wonders of dogmatic belief, Us vs. Them and the resulting religions and wars... all sorts of great stuff.

The war cry of the ego: "I am stronger without the tribe!"

The War Cry of the rational mind: "Holy Fuck, the tribe is full of crazy people that keep trying to sacrifice young girls!"

War cries are overrated.

Isn't it the tribal mindset which keeps families together? Which keeps an organization moving? Yes there are dangers to throwing aside the ego, just as there are dangers in individualism. Isn't a pragmatic approach more useful than refusing to orient onto a collective? Could we be castrating ourselves by getting lost in these microscopic details?

Yes, its also what keeps those Catholic families growing and growing and growing and getting 15 different STD's cause you can't put a rubber on your willy. Not to mention its what causes all those red faced godly Christians, foaming at the mouth when they see someone in a Burka... Of course, it also provides that wonderful safety of caste in India, and Honor Killings when your kid is foolish and marries outside their caste. The Tribe demands hegemony at the expense of rationality, individuality and personality.

But, its totally a good way to survive.

I mean, look at my family, they're happily embedded in the Tribe of Jehovah's Witnesses. When my Dad got laid off, food would magically appear at our front door, because the Tribe takes care of their own. Of course, once I decided I didn't want to be part of the tribe, they cut off all interaction... because that's what the Tribe demands. Survive, sure... have a life? Not so much...

You seem to be confusing personal choices with individualism. I see an individual as not being afraid to look at things from a different perspective, one who is willing to risk failure in order to achieve success.

I am not suggesting that personal choices and risk management are holding us back... one can make personal choices and take risks within a group.

But if on an individual level, we are dissatisfied with our environment, or level of control over that environment, and there seems to be no escape from it, we may gain a better perspective by detaching from the things which are giving us the most pain - our bank account, our cultural aesthetics, our pathetic and increasingly diminished role in this democracy contraption. All the bullshit which fills our lives and distracts us from the larger canvas.

True, seeing ourselves as part of a tribe has brought us the wonders of dogmatic belief, Us vs. Them and the resulting religions and wars... all sorts of great stuff.

The war cry of the ego: "I am stronger without the tribe!"

Isn't it the tribal mindset which keeps families together? Which keeps an organization moving? Yes there are dangers to throwing aside the ego, just as there are dangers in individualism. Isn't a pragmatic approach more useful than refusing to orient onto a collective? Could we be castrating ourselves by getting lost in these microscopic details?



this is discordian blasphemy, but I think some rocks deserve to be looked under

This absolutism is moronic. Individualism doesn't mean divorcing yourself from the rest of humanity, it means existing as a single consciousness within society and making decisions based on critical thought. It doesn't mean being short-sighted and seeing only to your own needs, it means being compassionate by your own choice. If you choose to be, anyway.

Very well stated!

[Phineas T. Poxwattle]

WRONG LEVEL OF ORGANIZATION. You don't thank quarks and leptons either, yet everything, absolutely everything, is composed of quarks and leptons.

Your point supports mine. When you zoom out, the individual disappears. I know we're all looking at each other here on the human level, so humans seem really important to us, but if we get outside of that perspective, it's possible that all this bullshit which fills our lives is kind of irrelevant.

White blood cells aren't complex enough to be capable of any tactics at all, much less forming an individual identity. Consider that a single white blood cell is smaller than some neurons. Your comparison doesn't apply.

there are structural similarities between the brain, the society, the city, the culture...

within the context of the human metabolism, a white blood cell is very much an individual. If complexity is the measure of an individual, I'm not sure that WE measure up, when you consider how complex and dynamic larger things are.





Greater comment in the context of the thread:

As I said a few posts back, this is a thought experiment. I want to examine some thoughts which seem to be forbidden from my individualistic point of view. To look under some not-often-tipped rocks. The tone of this thread is sort of descending from "rational discussion" into sarcasm and "you're wrong, idiot"... I want to emphasize that just because I'm examining these things does not mean I'm throwing my full weight behind them; this is critical analysis, not manifesto. PD has always been a place where people can chew out these ideas together, I have no interest in escalating into a flame war.

[Kai]

I am not suggesting that personal choices and risk management are holding us back... one can make personal choices and take risks within a group.

But if on an individual level, we are dissatisfied with our environment, or level of control over that environment, and there seems to be no escape from it, we may gain a better perspective by detaching from the things which are giving us the most pain - our bank account, our cultural aesthetics, our pathetic and increasingly diminished role in this democracy contraption. All the bullshit which fills our lives and distracts us from the larger canvas.

Could you keep your mind on one topic please and not all over the place? Jesus christ, I can't even follow what you're saying anymore. So, we simplify our lives, GOOD, but that doesn't the least bit have anything to do with becoming like onto eusocial insects.

The war cry of the ego: "I am stronger without the tribe!"
Isn't it the tribal mindset which keeps families together? Which keeps an organization moving? Yes there are dangers to throwing aside the ego, just as there are dangers in individualism. Isn't a pragmatic approach more useful than refusing to orient onto a collective? Could we be castrating ourselves by getting lost in these microscopic details?

this is discordian blasphemy, but I think some rocks deserve to be looked under

I think you are castrating yourself by POLARIZING THE MOTHERFUCKING ISSUE. Jesus christ, it's like I'm talking with a communist or libertarian or partistan or borg or catholic. The discordian blashphemy is acting like there are only two alternatives.

@Dok Plague: it can still interact with the environment, just not autonomously, but that wasn't my point anyway.

[President Television]

PD has always been a place where people can chew out these ideas together, I have no interest in escalating into a flame war.

Um, Discordianism.

@Dok Plague: it can still interact with the environment, just not autonomously, but that wasn't my point anyway.

Yeah, well that's what I meant. Any given white blood cell with the same DNA would behave in exactly the same way in any given situation. Individualism can't even be considered.

[Adios]

WRONG LEVEL OF ORGANIZATION. You don't thank quarks and leptons either, yet everything, absolutely everything, is composed of quarks and leptons.

Your point supports mine. When you zoom out, the individual disappears. I know we're all looking at each other here on the human level, so humans seem really important to us, but if we get outside of that perspective, it's possible that all this bullshit which fills our lives is kind of irrelevant.

White blood cells aren't complex enough to be capable of any tactics at all, much less forming an individual identity. Consider that a single white blood cell is smaller than some neurons. Your comparison doesn't apply.

there are structural similarities between the brain, the society, the city, the culture...

within the context of the human metabolism, a white blood cell is very much an individual. If complexity is the measure of an individual, I'm not sure that WE measure up, when you consider how complex and dynamic larger things are.





Greater comment in the context of the thread:

As I said a few posts back, this is a thought experiment. I want to examine some thoughts which seem to be forbidden from my individualistic point of view. To look under some not-often-tipped rocks. The tone of this thread is sort of descending from "rational discussion" into sarcasm and "you're wrong, idiot"... I want to emphasize that just because I'm examining these things does not mean I'm throwing my full weight behind them; this is critical analysis, not manifesto. PD has always been a place where people can chew out these ideas together, I have no interest in escalating into a flame war.

Then make your case more intelligently. Stay on topic. Avoid flowerery nonsense.

[Adios]

Actually this is beginning to remind me of DK.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

As I said a few posts back, this is a thought experiment. I want to examine some thoughts which seem to be forbidden from my individualistic point of view. To look under some not-often-tipped rocks. The tone of this thread is sort of descending from "rational discussion" into sarcasm and "you're wrong, idiot"... I want to emphasize that just because I'm examining these things does not mean I'm throwing my full weight behind them; this is critical analysis, not manifesto. PD has always been a place where people can chew out these ideas together, I have no interest in escalating into a flame war.

Then you need to present the ideas in a more thoughtful fashion... thus far, its not been much more than some wild generalizations and bad metaphors...