The Secret Histories, #1

[Doktor Howl]

Ok, here is the way I see it. If someone approached the Federal Government with this idea it would result in a room full of screaming monkies and a one way ticket to Gitmo.

So with this premise lest us cede the fact that the Federal Government will fail. Chaos will be immediate but individual states will scramble to maintain some kind of order. Everyone will be concerned with their own space and minimizing damage.

Once the dust settles some I can see less populated and some of the smaller states wanting to combine. Hawaii will forget we ever existed in under a minute. Same with Puerto Rico and possibly Alaska.

The existing governors will become ad hoc presidents. Then I suspect these new presidents will all want to meet and hammer out some details.

Now I will spend some time on trying to work out details.

Okay, guys, I really hate to be a Grammar Nazi, but it's "monkeys".

And I think the failure of the system WILL be multiple secessions.

[Richter]

Revolution, Revival, Renaissance, Dark Age, Apocalypse, or garden variety Armagedon are pretty simialr animals, in many ways.  Can't tell you why, it just strikes me so.  Our problem, our mountain to topple, our situation to work with, is not one that will be solved by a few months of molotovs in teh streets and riot police or national gaurd.  It's a change in thinking and ideals, reassertion of ourselves as reponsible parties for more than ourselves, and a flensing away of that which become uncessesary or redundant as this is done.  

This cannot be done cleanly.  Mistakes will be made, and horrible miscarriges of jsutice will occur in the meantime.  Both effective work and horrible miscarriges are happenign right now too, a fact which doesn't excuse more happening, but make effective change a worthwhile goal.  This will not make everyone happy with everything.  Life sucks, wear a hat.  This will not make everything perfect, but it will make it better.  Would you rather be unhappy with how a few people exercise a freedom you enjoy, or not have it at all?  (Think back to yuor parents offering you this choice "Play nice and share, or we take it away.")

It doesn't matter whether we extract the old watch or make another from spider scraps.  Will a plurality of us all being interested in the wellbeing of more than jsut our private selves make any difference here either?  Probably not.  A plurality of ourselves dissinterested, dissengaged, and self dissenfranchising to the point of slavery, though.  It's what we're workign ourselves towards, and we're chaining our selves into one  leaky old bitch of a slave galley.

[Adios]

Ok, here is the way I see it. If someone approached the Federal Government with this idea it would result in a room full of screaming monkies and a one way ticket to Gitmo.

So with this premise lest us cede the fact that the Federal Government will fail. Chaos will be immediate but individual states will scramble to maintain some kind of order. Everyone will be concerned with their own space and minimizing damage.

Once the dust settles some I can see less populated and some of the smaller states wanting to combine. Hawaii will forget we ever existed in under a minute. Same with Puerto Rico and possibly Alaska.

The existing governors will become ad hoc presidents. Then I suspect these new presidents will all want to meet and hammer out some details.

Now I will spend some time on trying to work out details.

Okay, guys, I really hate to be a Grammar Nazi, but it's "monkeys".

And I think the failure of the system WILL be multiple secessions.

My bad.

Actually if it were due to multiple secessions that would reduce the level of chaos at the state level because {hopefully} the remaining states would be able to see the handwriting on the wall.

[Doktor Howl]

Revolution, Revival, Renaissance, Dark Age, Apocalypse, or garden variety Armagedon are pretty simialr animals, in many ways.  Can't tell you why, it just strikes me so.  Our problem, our mountain to topple, our situation to work with, is not one that will be solved by a few months of molotovs in teh streets and riot police or national gaurd.  It's a change in thinking and ideals, reassertion of ourselves as reponsible parties for more than ourselves, and a flensing away of that which become uncessesary or redundant as this is done.  

This cannot be done cleanly.  Mistakes will be made, and horrible miscarriges of jsutice will occur in the meantime.  Both effective work and horrible miscarriges are happenign right now too, a fact which doesn't excuse more happening, but make effective change a worthwhile goal.  This will not make everyone happy with everything.  Life sucks, wear a hat.  This will not make everything perfect, but it will make it better.  Would you rather be unhappy with how a few people exercise a freedom you enjoy, or not have it at all?  (Think back to yuor parents offering you this choice "Play nice and share, or we take it away.")

It doesn't matter whether we extract the old watch or make another from spider scraps.  Will a plurality of us all being interested in the wellbeing of more than jsut our private selves make any difference here either?  Probably not.  A plurality of ourselves dissinterested, dissengaged, and self dissenfranchising to the point of slavery, though.  It's what we're workign ourselves towards, and we're chaining our selves into one  leaky old bitch of a slave galley.

Individuals rioting will not end the state.  There will be no revolution.  A civil war or three, maybe, but probably not.  The union will break into several fragments, and each will claim to be the "REAL" United states, and each will attempt to build their very own Spider.  They won't be able to afford it, of course, especially if they're kept busy giving each other the stink eye.

[Adios]

Revolution, Revival, Renaissance, Dark Age, Apocalypse, or garden variety Armagedon are pretty simialr animals, in many ways.  Can't tell you why, it just strikes me so.  Our problem, our mountain to topple, our situation to work with, is not one that will be solved by a few months of molotovs in teh streets and riot police or national gaurd.  It's a change in thinking and ideals, reassertion of ourselves as reponsible parties for more than ourselves, and a flensing away of that which become uncessesary or redundant as this is done.  

This cannot be done cleanly.  Mistakes will be made, and horrible miscarriges of jsutice will occur in the meantime.  Both effective work and horrible miscarriges are happenign right now too, a fact which doesn't excuse more happening, but make effective change a worthwhile goal.  This will not make everyone happy with everything.  Life sucks, wear a hat.  This will not make everything perfect, but it will make it better.  Would you rather be unhappy with how a few people exercise a freedom you enjoy, or not have it at all?  (Think back to yuor parents offering you this choice "Play nice and share, or we take it away.")

It doesn't matter whether we extract the old watch or make another from spider scraps.  Will a plurality of us all being interested in the wellbeing of more than jsut our private selves make any difference here either?  Probably not.  A plurality of ourselves dissinterested, dissengaged, and self dissenfranchising to the point of slavery, though.  It's what we're workign ourselves towards, and we're chaining our selves into one  leaky old bitch of a slave galley.

Individuals rioting will not end the state.  There will be no revolution.  A civil war or three, maybe, but probably not.  The union will break into several fragments, and each will claim to be the "REAL" United states, and each will attempt to build their very own Spider.  They won't be able to afford it, of course, especially if they're kept busy giving each other the stink eye.

Russell Means would die from excessive laughter.

[Doktor Howl]

My bad.

Actually if it were due to multiple secessions that would reduce the level of chaos at the state level because {hopefully} the remaining states would be able to see the handwriting on the wall.

Actually, they'd go insolvent the moment they left...And that's the only reason this might turn out well.  States like Arizona would tear themselves in half, Texas would split almost immediately into 4 nation states.  Alaska and Hawaii would either team up or (more likely) remain as whole, individual nations.

An interesting question is, who gets the Navy?  The bulk of it would stay with the federal government, I think, until the bitter end (defined as "we can't pay the sailors that we don't have because we lack the manpower"), and then get sold off to whomever has the cash.

Another interesting question, Cain would have fun with this, is what happens to the world market when the dollar ceases to exist?

[Adios]

My bad.

Actually if it were due to multiple secessions that would reduce the level of chaos at the state level because {hopefully} the remaining states would be able to see the handwriting on the wall.

Actually, they'd go insolvent the moment they left...And that's the only reason this might turn out well.  States like Arizona would tear themselves in half, Texas would split almost immediately into 4 nation states.  Alaska and Hawaii would either team up or (more likely) remain as whole, individual nations.

An interesting question is, who gets the Navy?  The bulk of it would stay with the federal government, I think, until the bitter end (defined as "we can't pay the sailors that we don't have because we lack the manpower"), and then get sold off to whomever has the cash.

Another interesting question, Cain would have fun with this, is what happens to the world market when the dollar ceases to exist?

China, we do owe them a couple of dollars.

[Adios]

Also Colorado and California would end up in a war over water.

[Doktor Howl]

My bad.

Actually if it were due to multiple secessions that would reduce the level of chaos at the state level because {hopefully} the remaining states would be able to see the handwriting on the wall.

Actually, they'd go insolvent the moment they left...And that's the only reason this might turn out well.  States like Arizona would tear themselves in half, Texas would split almost immediately into 4 nation states.  Alaska and Hawaii would either team up or (more likely) remain as whole, individual nations.

An interesting question is, who gets the Navy?  The bulk of it would stay with the federal government, I think, until the bitter end (defined as "we can't pay the sailors that we don't have because we lack the manpower"), and then get sold off to whomever has the cash.

Another interesting question, Cain would have fun with this, is what happens to the world market when the dollar ceases to exist?

China, we do owe them a couple of dollars.

So let them collect.

[Richter]

Nice work, Dok. I liked it. So, if I've got you right, you think that the current system if dying off, so what should hopefully happen is that a new system be designed to replace it. Any thoughts on what this system might be like?

Waiting for the rest...

As am I.

About 40 separate countries with the common bonds of proximity, commerce and currency.

I was thinking of 4-6 countries with no common bonds save suspicion.

The current European union is a decent model, I'm thinking.  The current USA shares a lot of the same characteristics, jsut the state system has buffered the regional realities and idealistic differences from shaking things apart too much.  The problems with trying to balance regional authority with overarching Federal power has become apparent, especially in trying to churn out laws, programs, or doctrine which applies well (not to mention EVENLY or fAIRLY) to the whole range of regional and occupational realities.  

[Doktor Howl]

Nice work, Dok. I liked it. So, if I've got you right, you think that the current system if dying off, so what should hopefully happen is that a new system be designed to replace it. Any thoughts on what this system might be like?

Waiting for the rest...

As am I.

About 40 separate countries with the common bonds of proximity, commerce and currency.

I was thinking of 4-6 countries with no common bonds save suspicion.

The current European union is a decent model, I'm thinking.  The current USA shares a lot of the same characteristics, jsut the state system has buffered the regional realities and idealistic differences from shaking things apart too much.  The problems with trying to balance regional authority with overarching Federal power has become apparent, especially in trying to churn out laws, programs, or doctrine which applies well (not to mention EVENLY or fAIRLY) to the whole range of regional and occupational realities.  

Yep.  What's funny is that the EU originally started out trying to build a superstate, and we're about to have our superstate collapse.

Our problem is complexity.  The easiest way to get rid of complexity is to reduce the size of the organization.

[Richter]

More itterations of the attempt over smaller spiders, more chances to get it working more better.
More chances for someone to start the megachurch nation of god too. (turn around, drop trou, grab ankles, scuffle you butt to the communion rail for preacher.)

[Doktor Howl]

More itterations of the attempt over smaller spiders, more chances to get it working more better.
More chances for someone to start the megachurch nation of god too. (turn around, drop trou, grab ankles, scuffle you butt to the communion rail for preacher.)

Yeah, but OUR job, as proper Discordians, would be to keep them a little too busy to start their Spiders.

[Freeky]

I'm curious. is this thread just a mental excersize, or is it going to lead to ideas about how to speed up the process of this demise?

[Adios]

I can see in some states where the big corporations would have immediate major influence IF there was an immediate monetary currency solution.