Kill the Culture and Burn the Pulpit Part 2: Cultural Change

[BabylonHoruv]

There's no such thing as "individuals". Individual humans are only partly self-aware refractions of their culture, social and media environment, and DNA programming. So to say "individual humans are good but groups are bad" is not only superstitious nonsense - a verbal sacrifice to the unquestionable God of the Individualist Ego - but is completely bass-ackwards. The group makes the individual. An individual divorced from any group goes nuckin' futs - serial killer, Unabomber, sociopath, dictator.

Saying "social change must start from the individual" is precisely as silly as "changes in the tides must start with the individual water droplet". As above, so below: social changes is always and everywhere the same thing as individual change. One just does not happen without the other.

Ooh, the lady from Chaos Marxism.  Good to see you here.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Talk about muddles of models!

'I can model some, but not all, human action as part of a greater thing... THEREFORE THERE IS NO INDIVIDUAL!!!!'
'I can model some, but not all, human action as self-aware choice... THEREFORE THERE IS THE INDIVIDUAL!!!'

...
.....

I think that society, tribe, etc would not exist without the individual. I think that the individual would have a difficult time (though not impossible) to live without the tribe.

The question should not be WHICH ONE, but how do we balance the two.... IMO the individual must change, for the society to change.

Or if we want to use a bad collective metaphor... The gene must change before the organism can change.

"The Revolution was effected before the War commenced. The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments of their duties and obligations. This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people, was the real American Revolution." - John Adams

And when men become free then mankind will be free.
May you be free of The Curse of Greyface.
May the Goddess put twinkles in your eyes.
May you have the knowledge of a sage,
and the wisdom of a child.
Hail Eris.

[BabylonHoruv]

Talk about muddles of models!

'I can model some, but not all, human action as part of a greater thing... THEREFORE THERE IS NO INDIVIDUAL!!!!'
'I can model some, but not all, human action as self-aware choice... THEREFORE THERE IS THE INDIVIDUAL!!!'

...
.....

I think that society, tribe, etc would not exist without the individual. I think that the individual would have a difficult time (though not impossible) to live without the tribe.

The question should not be WHICH ONE, but how do we balance the two.... IMO the individual must change, for the society to change.

Or if we want to use a bad collective metaphor... The gene must change before the organism can change.

"The Revolution was effected before the War commenced. The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments of their duties and obligations. This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people, was the real American Revolution." - John Adams

And when men become free then mankind will be free.
May you be free of The Curse of Greyface.
May the Goddess put twinkles in your eyes.
May you have the knowledge of a sage,
and the wisdom of a child.
Hail Eris.

I don't think one or the other has to come first.  Societal changes change individuals within the society and individual changes change the society the individual is part of.  However we have much more control over our individual selves, so to create a change our selves are the only place we can really start.

[Adios]

Talk about muddles of models!

'I can model some, but not all, human action as part of a greater thing... THEREFORE THERE IS NO INDIVIDUAL!!!!'
'I can model some, but not all, human action as self-aware choice... THEREFORE THERE IS THE INDIVIDUAL!!!'

...
.....

I think that society, tribe, etc would not exist without the individual. I think that the individual would have a difficult time (though not impossible) to live without the tribe.

The question should not be WHICH ONE, but how do we balance the two.... IMO the individual must change, for the society to change.

Or if we want to use a bad collective metaphor... The gene must change before the organism can change.

"The Revolution was effected before the War commenced. The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments of their duties and obligations. This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people, was the real American Revolution." - John Adams

And when men become free then mankind will be free.
May you be free of The Curse of Greyface.
May the Goddess put twinkles in your eyes.
May you have the knowledge of a sage,
and the wisdom of a child.
Hail Eris.

I don't think one or the other has to come first.  Societal changes change individuals within the society and individual changes change the society the individual is part of.  However we have much more control over our individual selves, so to create a change our selves are the only place we can really start.

Are you saying leaders are fictional?

[BabylonHoruv]

Talk about muddles of models!

'I can model some, but not all, human action as part of a greater thing... THEREFORE THERE IS NO INDIVIDUAL!!!!'
'I can model some, but not all, human action as self-aware choice... THEREFORE THERE IS THE INDIVIDUAL!!!'

...
.....

I think that society, tribe, etc would not exist without the individual. I think that the individual would have a difficult time (though not impossible) to live without the tribe.

The question should not be WHICH ONE, but how do we balance the two.... IMO the individual must change, for the society to change.

Or if we want to use a bad collective metaphor... The gene must change before the organism can change.

"The Revolution was effected before the War commenced. The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments of their duties and obligations. This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people, was the real American Revolution." - John Adams

And when men become free then mankind will be free.
May you be free of The Curse of Greyface.
May the Goddess put twinkles in your eyes.
May you have the knowledge of a sage,
and the wisdom of a child.
Hail Eris.

I don't think one or the other has to come first.  Societal changes change individuals within the society and individual changes change the society the individual is part of.  However we have much more control over our individual selves, so to create a change our selves are the only place we can really start.

Are you saying leaders are fictional?

I think "an illusion" would be more accurate than fictional.