The "WTC Mosque" hysteria, in a nutshell

[AFK]

Yeah, religion plays no part in Israel-Palestine at all. 

Also, Muslims should suck it up and stop desecrating the hallowed Ground Zero, so the Dems don't lose in November:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-17/the-ground-zero-mosque-litmus-test/

The November elections are very close to becoming—if they haven't already so become—the first national elections in the United States whose results are determined by the location of a mosque. Call them, in fact, the "Mosque Elections."

Forget health-care reform and unbridled stimulus spending; forget perceived errors in Iraq and Afghanistan; forget unemployment and our economy's endless night; forget, if you can, the toxic questions of illegal immigration and oil spills in the Gulf of Mexico. If the promoters of the mosque near ground zero do not pack up their Korans and prayer mats within the next week or so, there is every danger that they will cause the Democrats grievous harm in November—in an election that is already one in which the Democrats are bracing for a rout.

This just gets funnier and funnier.  Dear jeebus this place is going to bonkersville in a fucked-basket. 

[AFK]

Sadly, this common sense is not present in Congress, where Democrats are now attacking dissident Republicans, like the attacks by Rep. Michael Arcuri of New York on his GOP challenger, Richard Hanna, for supporting the Cordoba House initiative.

Chris Hayes of The Nation was filling in for Rachel Maddow last night.  He was reporting that Hanna has now reversed his position and is now also against the Park 51 community center.  And now they are fighting over whether or not Hanna is a flip-flopper. 

[Iason Ouabache]

Yeah, religion plays no part in Israel-Palestine at all. 

Also, Muslims should suck it up and stop desecrating the hallowed Ground Zero, so the Dems don't lose in November:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-17/the-ground-zero-mosque-litmus-test/

The November elections are very close to becoming—if they haven't already so become—the first national elections in the United States whose results are determined by the location of a mosque. Call them, in fact, the "Mosque Elections."

Forget health-care reform and unbridled stimulus spending; forget perceived errors in Iraq and Afghanistan; forget unemployment and our economy's endless night; forget, if you can, the toxic questions of illegal immigration and oil spills in the Gulf of Mexico. If the promoters of the mosque near ground zero do not pack up their Korans and prayer mats within the next week or so, there is every danger that they will cause the Democrats grievous harm in November—in an election that is already one in which the Democrats are bracing for a rout.

This was the point of this manufactroversy from the begin. It's a wedge issue to pull more xenophobic people over to the Republicans in November. It's the exact same thing they did in 2004 with gay marriage. I would be laughing if it didn't work so fucking well.

[LMNO]

Jon Stewart did a really good riff on this for the 8/16/10 show.  I don't have access to the site, but someone should track it down and x-post.

[Suu]

It's available real estate in Manhattan.

People need to get the fuck over it.

That is all.

[Adios]

It's available real estate in Manhattan.

People need to get the fuck over it.

That is all.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/jon-stewart-on-the-mosque-who-knew-the-first-amendment-had-the-same-slogan-as-century-21/

[Doktor Howl]

It's available real estate in Manhattan.

People need to get the fuck over it.

That is all.

Also, we either have freedom of religion in this country, or we don't.  There's no middle ground.

[Cain]

When even Grover Norquist is criticizing you, you know your position sucks (Norquist actually has a Muslim wife, IIRC, and points out when American Christians act like this, all Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc sit up and take notice.  And remember names for when election day rolls around).

[Adios]

It's available real estate in Manhattan.

People need to get the fuck over it.

That is all.

Also, we either have freedom of religion in this country, or we don't.  There's no middle ground.

Don't forget some are questioning whether Islam is even a religion.

[Cain]

Yeah, Islam cant be a religion, because it aims to rule the world.

Which makes it totally unlike, say, Catholicism:

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff

[Doktor Howl]

It's available real estate in Manhattan.

People need to get the fuck over it.

That is all.

Also, we either have freedom of religion in this country, or we don't.  There's no middle ground.

Don't forget some are questioning whether Islam is even a religion.

Some are chewing on paint chips.

[Adios]

May they be based in lead.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

I was prompted by BH over at TCC to do some Googling, and it turns out not only is there a statue to Jesus at the "hallowed ground"* of the OK City bombing, but there is also a cathedral less than a block away.  Why are Christians threatening our values and way of life?


*Is it just me, or is there something rather disturbing, if historically accurate, about describing a site of politically inspired mass murder in such religious terminology?  I mean it's like referring to the areas where Catholic priests have raped little kids as "sacred space".

Well, Timothy McVeigh appears to have been motivated by anti-federal dogma more than the fact that the Branch Davidians were Christian, while the 9/11 bombers seem more clearly motivated by religious dogma.

Regardless, the "hallowed ground" point is still a great point, I hadn't considered that. There is something deeply fucked up, and yes, oddly appropriate about it.

I think it's a question of where you draw the line.  Most of the 90s antifederalist movement was religiously motivated, and even though McVeigh was an agnostic, he was moving within a milieu of people who believed in Christian Identity inspired ideologies and worldviews.  Equally, many Al-Qaeda members are highly educated men, who seem to believe in Islam for more cultural and political reasons than strictly for religious reasons (they believe Islam provides a blueprint for living which stops men from slipping into ignorant, hedonistic barbarism and becoming weak, rather than because Allah sent the Archangel Gabriel to Mohammed to strike up a new convenant).

Fair enough.

Do you have any sources handy about Al-Qaeda drawing members more interested the cultural and political side of Islam? Not that I don't believe you, but because I know I'll get called on it in a future argument with anti-WTC mosquers. Also because your source is likely to have other useful facts to pepper the opposition with.

[Cain]

Its more of a general impression I've formed.  They're very into Islamism, the political ideology advanced by Sayid Qutb and the Muslim Brotherhood, and while they preach the need for a return to Salafist values...well, they're the kind of people who attend strip clubs, drink beer and eat pork ("but only to maintain their cover, honest!").  They view Islam through tactical and political terms - its bound up in revolution, restoration of an older political order, the removal of influence of a political hegemon.  Some of the newer crop of Al-Qaeda recruits cant even read Arabic, and only know a few token verses of the Koran, normally the ones about killing infidels.  Among the less well educated, Bin Laden hero-worship seems like the only religious activity that is going on.

That's not to say there aren't also many Muslims within Al-Qaeda, only that among Middle eastern elites (the ones who go abroad to University, and end up being recruited by Al-Qaeda), their relationship to Islam is far more of a cultural affiliation than a believer would have, I think.

But then, that may be true of many other religious terrorists, I don't know.  Al-Qaeda are the group I'm most familiar with.

[Thurnez Isa]

You can replace Islamism with Christianity and Salafist values with family values and can hypothesize maybe it's just a human nature thing.