News:

We've got artists, scientists, scholars, pranksters, publishers, songwriters, and political activists.  We've subjected Discordia to scrutiny, torn it apart, and put it back together. We've written songs about it, we've got a stack of essays, and, to refer back to your quote above, we criticize the hell out of each other.

Main Menu

Government now has right to track you using GPS

Started by Adios, August 25, 2010, 06:12:24 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Jenne

Quote from: Secret Level on August 25, 2010, 11:49:18 PM
Quote from: Requia ☣ on August 25, 2010, 11:45:23 PM
Quote from: Nigel on August 25, 2010, 11:35:37 PM
Quote from: Jenne on August 25, 2010, 07:59:02 PM
And since most of them are also poor, marginalizing this type of "right" on the basis of who can own property big enough to secure their belongings makes a clear path to which way the courts were awarding this one.

I wanted to comment on this, because it's not true. Most smudgy people in the US are middle or working class. A higher percentage of smudgy people are impoverished than the percentage of white people based on the total population, but the widespread idea that "most" brown people are poor, uneducated, or have gang affiliations is purely a media misrepresentation designed to make white people afraid of us.

define 'not poor', for the purpose of this conversation, anybody who lives in an apartment building, or who doesn't have a garage at their house, is 'poor'.  That sounds like a good chunk of the working class to me.

Basically anyone who cannot maintain physical control over their property unless physically present.

car on the street? tagged
you don't have a gated yard/drive way? tagged
you left your gate open? probably tagged.

If a civilian does this it's stalking.
If the cops do this it's tailing someone with out being physically present.

Yeah, mostly.  I mean, you can default that if the government wants to, they will, and if you protest, you are likely the one to be slapped for protesting, rather than the government for mistakenly going there in the first place.

Even if you have a fucking gate/fence.

But having one would, of course help.

That's why gated communities are so "ooh-ah" (or were back in the day, I think they've been debunked as havens for thievery and other nefarious deeds if someone wishes rather than the other way around).  They tell the world "you have no exclusive rights to our property!" when in reality no one has anything other than the right to be watched and surveilled.

Don Coyote

Nevermind that how many vehicles have some sort of built in GPS/OMG HELP MAH NAO button built in nowadays. If they definitely make this a 'it's cool we are teh guberment' thing then everyone with onstar or lowjack(lol you just paid to have your vehicle tracked by the cops) will already be on the grid.

Jenne

http://www.thechildrensinitiative.org/pdfs/report_card/CI_ReportCard_2009_final_web.pdf

That's where I get most of my data for San Diego--I work for these people through PTA.  And they have some great facts/figures for countywide data on what ethnicities have low birth rates (a number one indicator of poverty, welfare and health), poverty levels and food stamp users across the county.  Central, south and east counties, where the highest concentration of minorities live, have more than the rest of the parts of the county combined.

Pope Lecherous

Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 25, 2010, 06:25:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on August 25, 2010, 06:24:42 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 25, 2010, 06:23:14 PM
Can we put GPS devices on government vehicles, then?

I think so!

Somehow, I think that would be different.  For reasons that do not concern us peasants.

that would make you a terrorist
--- War to the knife, knife to the hilt.

Adios

The definition of poor, as far as this topic is concerned, is the less than privileged.

Disco Pickle

QuoteAfter all, if government agents can track people with secretly planted GPS devices virtually anytime they want, without having to go to a court for a warrant, we are one step closer to a classic police state — with technology taking on the role of the KGB or the East German Stasi.

there may be a concept being overlooked here. 

If it gets to the point where the courts only rule that they can't come on your private property and plant a tracking device, then they'll simply
begin to use man hours and follow you (completely legal if you're a government agency investigating someone) and plant it on your car when you park it in a public parking lot.

I'm east coast, so maybe someone west coast with some knowledge about "duh law" regarding stalkers could elaborate on whether this might be able to be argued in court as a stalker case against the state?

I realize that realistically, this is very unlikely, as there needs to be intent to "fill in the blank" but fuck, there has to be a legal precedent somewhere that helps in the fight against this shit.

"Events in the past may be roughly divided into those which probably never happened and those which do not matter." --William Ralph Inge

"sometimes someone confesses a sin in order to take credit for it." -- John Von Neumann

Jenne

The thing is, you have "probable cause" to contend with when it comes to government stalking.  Patriot Acts totally blew privacy out of the picture.  If you are a suspect of the state, then you are culpable by just breathing.

Disco Pickle

QuoteThe thing is, you have "probable cause" to contend with when it comes to government stalking.  Patriot Acts totally blew privacy out of the picture.  If you are a suspect of the state, then you are culpable by just breathing.

"for terrorist activities"

which is increasingly defined to include ANY actions against the established order.

that means..  *gasp*  some of us could be terrorists.

the HLSA is a joke and more and more reason why I would choose to live in a poverty stricken state like Mexico, adjusting to the means required to survive, than stay another decade on the land in which I was born.
"Events in the past may be roughly divided into those which probably never happened and those which do not matter." --William Ralph Inge

"sometimes someone confesses a sin in order to take credit for it." -- John Von Neumann

Nast

Quote from: The Dancing Pickle on August 26, 2010, 05:08:09 AM
QuoteThe thing is, you have "probable cause" to contend with when it comes to government stalking.  Patriot Acts totally blew privacy out of the picture.  If you are a suspect of the state, then you are culpable by just breathing.

"for terrorist activities"

which is increasingly defined to include ANY actions against the established order.

that means..  *gasp*  some of us could be terrorists.

the HLSA is a joke and more and more reason why I would choose to live in a poverty stricken state like Mexico, adjusting to the means required to survive, than stay another decade on the land in which I was born.

Mexico is preferable to live in than the US now?

:O

Well, I bet the food is better.
"If I owned Goodwill, no charity worker would feel safe.  I would sit in my office behind a massive pile of cocaine, racking my pistol's slide every time the cleaning lady came near.  Auditors, I'd just shoot."

The Johnny


Id say that "poor" is about being in the lower 1/3rd (33.3%) of the income scale

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States#Income_distribution

So let me improvise some mathemadjicks...
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

The Johnny

#85
So about 35.21% of the population makes $17,499 or less...

I think thats what "poor" would be.

ETA: fixx
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

The Johnny


Middle class would be an income between $17,499-35,000... (33.3%ish-70%ish)

Of course that high class would mean from $35,000 to the billions that the top 6% own and puts everyone to shame...
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

bds

Quote from: Joh'Nyx on August 26, 2010, 11:30:58 AM

Middle class would be an income between $17,499-35,000... (33.3%ish-70%ish)

Of course that high class would mean from $35,000 to the billions that the top 6% own and puts everyone to shame...

I don't think earning above £22k a year makes you high class.

Cain

Yeah, living costs in America are cheaper, but not that much cheaper.  £22k is about subsistence wage in London, and starting pay for young professionals or graduates elsewhere.  Taking into account the cost of housing or renting, food, taxes and other basics (which Americans would know better than us) would give us a good idea of how much of that money is actually potentially saved/spent on luxury goods, which would be a better indicator of income and class.

Or we could just do the Marxist thing and point out probably 90%+ of people in America don't own any means of production and so are working class by definition.  Which is a lot simpler, but also causes a lot more other problems.

The Johnny


Well, this is for the USA, so, talking about pounds and England would mean a different set of calculations.

Also, income, as far as i understand it, is after taxes deducted.
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner