What can this forum help us accomplish?

[The Wizard]

Oh, and I'm calling it a night. Talk to you in the morning folks. Hope things are doing better.

[AFK]

Remember Dok's "five pillars of Discordia"? while I respect that some of you are here for mainly social reasons, some of us are here to do projects. I started this thread to talk to those guys -- like dimo and nephew twiddleson, who are still excited about collaboration.

Speaking for myself and I suspect a lot of others around here, I want to be doing cool stuff that's worth telling other people about, and I actively use this forum as a resource to that end. I see it that way due to my experiences here - this forum has channeled a lot of awesome energy through my life. There are probably other forums out there where this is possible, but none of them are about Discordia.

Our creative processes can be examined and made more efficient. That is the aim of this thread.

If you think this forum isn't useful for that, or that's not why you're here, that's cool. But kindly GTFO MY THREAD AND STOP VAMPING OTHER PEOPLE'S ENERGY.

seriously, every time I start a thread like this, I spent most of the time trying to justify why I might want to talk about this stuff. Sometimes I do wonder why I even fucking bother trying to use this place as a creative platform, thank you guys for reminding me of that.

Maybe you should have been clear about that at the beginning of the thread, instead of being extremely vague and general, addressing everyone at large, and then pitching a hissy when "the right" people didn't read your mind and respond exactly as you wanted.

I thought it was pretty clear when I read it.  Even before he made the edits to help make it clearer to you and Rat.  These are discussions that have come up time and again over the years since we've all been here.  I think it is a good discussion to have to sort of take inventory of what capacity we have here, what additional capacity we need, and then, what do we do with that capacity. 

[Cramulus]

Are your aims to accomplish something that could be implemented moreso in meatspace (ie: Postergasm material, Pirate Pass-off)
or are you leaning more toward things that are better spread across the internet (podcasts and such)?

that's definitely a good topic for discussion. If the goal is to infect people with Eris, where are our energies both spent?

social media logic suggests that we need both meatspace and digital efforts.

Speaking for myself, I like to create resources and tools that people can use in real life. One of the reasons I championed POSTERGASM is because I wanted newcomers to have an activity they could do and feel a real sense of participation. And this particular form of participation is a beacon to other likeminded weirdos.

Something I've noticed is that people who aren't in on the joke tend to be immune to things like Postergasm. While you might get a "That's so weird", the message won't go much deeper than that. How to get new ideas into people's heads, and have them actually think about it is a problem I would like to tackle.

a few of the postergasm packs are based on this exact question. It's a great question -- one we should be revisiting constantly.

Volume Dingus, for example, is based on the idea of putting up things which are subtly incongruous with the average pedestrian's expectations. My thinking was that if you see something that clearly does not belong, this would make you question what it's doing there. And if you start to think about why somebody would waste their calories putting up joke posters all around the neighborhood, it shifts you to a different frame of reference. A large part of it is resisting capitalist programming, the idea that something is only legitimate if there's money involved.

Then Calvinball followed - which is largely about trying to generate the illusion of a giant game. It suggests that maybe there is a really fun layer of reality hidden right in front of your face.

But there are certainly other ways to approach this problem. I'd love to hear more riffs on that note.






Last time we had this discussion (re: how to collectively get better at making cool stuff), one of the things which came up is that many of our successful projects involve collecting and organizing resources we create for fun. The Fat Eris Cook book, for example, was based on the observation that there are tons of great recipes lying aorund, and wouldn't it be cool if it were a PDF you could have in your kitchen?

This method tends to work better than coming up with a concept and then asking people to write for it. For example, there was a project on this board called LOLLERCAUST which has been started and dropped probably a half dozen times. We had a concept for lollercaust before we ever had material for it. And then the material we generated didn't reach the goal we had stated.


By examining past creative processes, we're better able to understand what kinds of projects take off.


So let's think... what happened to the fat eris cookbook? We had tons of great energy there and then it vanished. Well at a certain point, every project needs a champion, somebody who's willing to collect all the pieces and format them. I think it was Pariah who was masterminding that project? Eventually he lost interest (for whatever reason), and it's sat dormant since then.

What if, when he realized that he was losing steam, he passed it off to somebody else? If he'd posted the layout files he'd been working on, I wonder if somebody else would have picked them up.

Maybe that's something to explore..

[Cramulus]

what about distribution? -- we can easily distribute it to the forum, but what about after that? How do we connect this idea with us being egotistical blowhards who like to see our thoughts in print?

If we can find a solution to this, most of the other problems will seem minor.

We should really see if we can contact people in the current internet counterculture - groups like the former Technoccult site (now Renegade Futurist), Alterati (good for creative projects), the PDX Occulture lot...and work from there.  The first two in particular churn out links and promotions like nobodies business, and with the added bonus of attracting our sort of crowd.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

I misunderstood the question and I will excuse myself from the rest of the thread. No offense mean, Cramulus!!

Sorry!

[tyrannosaurus vex]

I don't know that problems with unfinished/unrealized projects is entirely a lack of internal process. We tend to work really well without very little clash or lack of action when the energy is good. If a project loses energy, you can pass it off as many times as you want but it is the collective energy that keeps it going.

I think the collective energy dissipates because of a lack of defined direction/goals, and hence a lack of results. And every new project becomes harder to start on purpose without waiting for that collective energy to spark again spontaneously, because the last string of projects amounted to nothing.

I think affecting the public is good for its own sake, but results in that arena will also give us more energy and ideas for new projects. So maybe the idea of "Growing" discordia should be redefined - maybe this isn't about getting new people to call themselves Discordians, but about making bigger waves in popular culture just for the sake of getting a kick out of it and energizing us to keep doing it. I think a natural result of that will be more people calling themselves Discordians anyway.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Cram's posts have answered a couple of questions that I've had about projects. For example one question I had was "do we do stuff to bring people to Discordia, to make them think, to shake them out of their drudgery or for a larf?" The answer is all of the above and I like that.

I like EggGASM a lot, for example. It's easy to do, fun to do, and is a weird little present for the person who finds it. I like doing it when it's not Easter time since it adds to the oddness. I did try it at a St. Patrick's Day party. Unfortunately my audience wasn't particularly imaginative and the only one they thought was funny was one that asked if having sex with your clone was masturbation. All the other ones just kinda went over their head. One of them also said that whoever wrote them must be a chick or gay because the handwritting was too neat. I still had fun with it though, since everyone wondered what the hell was going on.

Anyway, part of what I like about the projects here is that it gives me an opportunity to do something fun and shake me out of my own drudgery. But if I can make my participation more effective, all the better. Like others have said the "Oh that's weird. Hmmm." Problem is something that would be good for us to figure out how to fix.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I don't know that problems with unfinished/unrealized projects is entirely a lack of internal process. We tend to work really well without very little clash or lack of action when the energy is good. If a project loses energy, you can pass it off as many times as you want but it is the collective energy that keeps it going.

I think the collective energy dissipates because of a lack of defined direction/goals, and hence a lack of results. And every new project becomes harder to start on purpose without waiting for that collective energy to spark again spontaneously, because the last string of projects amounted to nothing.

I think affecting the public is good for its own sake, but results in that arena will also give us more energy and ideas for new projects. So maybe the idea of "Growing" discordia should be redefined - maybe this isn't about getting new people to call themselves Discordians, but about making bigger waves in popular culture just for the sake of getting a kick out of it and energizing us to keep doing it. I think a natural result of that will be more people calling themselves Discordians anyway.

You can't make a Discordian overnight. I heard about Discordianism years before I decided to adopt it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I refuse to participate in any group projects from now on because apparently, if I respond in a way that challenges what Cram wants to hear, or indicate that I know anything about how people's minds and creativity work, I become one of the Undesirables and unworthy of recognition.

Have fun with your vision of Discordia as corporate entity!

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Cram- despite what misunderstandings have arisen in this thread, I like it, because it's causing me to examine the purpose Discordia has for me, and how I can better use it. Plus, it's a nice motivator.

[Cramulus]

I refuse to participate in any group projects from now on because apparently, if I respond in a way that challenges what Cram wants to hear, or indicate that I know anything about how people's minds and creativity work, I become one of the Undesirables and unworthy of recognition.

Have fun with your vision of Discordia as corporate entity!

whatever

it's not like I was unclear about what the point of this thread was. I answered the questions in the OP twice ITT to get the ball rolling in the direction I wanted to discuss. Other people seem to be getting it just fine.

Historically, whenever somebody starts a thread like this, you've been very vocal that you don't want to be organized or challenged, and that you'd be freaked out if some of us had stated goals and objectives. That's cool, nobody's twisting your arm into sharing those goals or playing along. But you are sucking wind out of people's sails by objecting whenever people want to talk about THEIR goals or how we can get better at accomplishing them.

If you started a thread because you wanted to talk about a specific topic, wouldn't it frustrate you if I kept posting in that thread about how that topic is meaningless and I don't want to discuss it?

Now you're all "I refuse to participate in any group projects from now on" because I don't want to engage you while you're actively working against me? meh, sour grapes!

[AFK]

We've had this problem before.  Back when we were starting to have some energy around PD 06 which then became BIP, etc., there was some consternation among some long-timers about organized Discordia.  What was unfortunate was that some of those people decided to just take their ball and go elsewhere *cough*EB&G*cough*.  Not everyone on pd.com HAS to be involved in projects.  I know, as much as I would like to be, I likely won't because I can't commit the time.  But, that doesn't mean we can't at least encourage those who can and want to and offer some positive input into what they want to achieve.  I really do admire Cram's motivation and commitment to finding projects and avenues for spreading Discordia to broader audiences.  Nobody really knows about us and so it does require somewhat broad thinking and thus some broad questions and from there hone in on what we can and want to focus on. 

Anyway, that was a long winded way of saying "Good on you Cram, keep up the good work!"

[Chairman Risus]

Are your aims to accomplish something that could be implemented moreso in meatspace (ie: Postergasm material, Pirate Pass-off)
or are you leaning more toward things that are better spread across the internet (podcasts and such)?

that's definitely a good topic for discussion. If the goal is to infect people with Eris, where are our energies both spent?

social media logic suggests that we need both meatspace and digital efforts.

Speaking for myself, I like to create resources and tools that people can use in real life. One of the reasons I championed POSTERGASM is because I wanted newcomers to have an activity they could do and feel a real sense of participation. And this particular form of participation is a beacon to other likeminded weirdos.

Something I've noticed is that people who aren't in on the joke tend to be immune to things like Postergasm. While you might get a "That's so weird", the message won't go much deeper than that. How to get new ideas into people's heads, and have them actually think about it is a problem I would like to tackle.

a few of the postergasm packs are based on this exact question. It's a great question -- one we should be revisiting constantly.

Volume Dingus, for example, is based on the idea of putting up things which are subtly incongruous with the average pedestrian's expectations. My thinking was that if you see something that clearly does not belong, this would make you question what it's doing there. And if you start to think about why somebody would waste their calories putting up joke posters all around the neighborhood, it shifts you to a different frame of reference. A large part of it is resisting capitalist programming, the idea that something is only legitimate if there's money involved.

Then Calvinball followed - which is largely about trying to generate the illusion of a giant game. It suggests that maybe there is a really fun layer of reality hidden right in front of your face.

But there are certainly other ways to approach this problem. I'd love to hear more riffs on that note.

Maybe the way to approach the problem of people immediately dismissing the 'weirdness" would be to try a bait and switch. The Volume Dingus was halfway there, I think. The picture allowed it to blend in with "accepted" posters, while the text was gibberish.

Maybe if there were two part posters, or signs that, while seemingly harmless and not weird, would invite suckers people to false meetings or to other locations with increasingly stranger signs.

I'm going to fine tune this idea, and get something workable going.

[Telarus]

I misunderstood the question and I will excuse myself from the rest of the thread. No offense mean, Cramulus!!

Sorry!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I refuse to participate in any group projects from now on because apparently, if I respond in a way that challenges what Cram wants to hear, or indicate that I know anything about how people's minds and creativity work, I become one of the Undesirables and unworthy of recognition.

Have fun with your vision of Discordia as corporate entity!

whatever

it's not like I was unclear about what the point of this thread was. I answered the questions in the OP twice ITT to get the ball rolling in the direction I wanted to discuss. Other people seem to be getting it just fine.

Historically, whenever somebody starts a thread like this, you've been very vocal that you don't want to be organized or challenged, and that you'd be freaked out if some of us had stated goals and objectives. That's cool, nobody's twisting your arm into sharing those goals or playing along. But you are sucking wind out of people's sails by objecting whenever people want to talk about THEIR goals or how we can get better at accomplishing them.

If you started a thread because you wanted to talk about a specific topic, wouldn't it frustrate you if I kept posting in that thread about how that topic is meaningless and I don't want to discuss it?

Now you're all "I refuse to participate in any group projects from now on" because I don't want to engage you while you're actively working against me? meh, sour grapes!

I wasn't actively working against you. You posed some pretty vague questions, I responded with my thoughts based on the questions you wrote, and you got shitty, insulting, and defensive. That's where I'm at, now; you made it pretty clear that I'm a board nigger if I differ from your way of thinking. You went back and clarified, but that didn't fix your insult-slinging hissy fit that I didn't read your mind and fall in line in the first place, nor your implication that I don't contribute to or lead any group projects.

I'm still not saying that group projects don't work. I am, however, saying that you could stand to tighten it up and address the people, instead of pulling this "we" shit and then lambasting everyone who thinks differently.

I don't even know what you mean by "sour grapes". I have my own projects; many of them include groups of people. I just do them. It's not like I feel like I'm missing out because I'm not into LARP.