Thoughts on Eris?

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

So, okay.

If we ponder for a moment, what if the Greek Gods _aren't_ real, as few now believe they are, but that the Trojan War did happen, what then caused the Trojan War?

The Trojan War actually is not mythology specifically, but legend. Mythology is a story that tries to make sense out of the universe and explain why things are the way they are. Legends are stories that are loosely based on history.

For example in the Bible, the Creation account is mythology, but Exodus is legend. It might not be 100% true, but there is some sort of history to it. So while Jehovah is present in both Genesis and Exodus, Genesis hinges on the existence of Jehovah, whereas Exodus does not. I find it kinda hard to swallow that God would tell Moses, "Tell Pharaoh to let you go, and I'm going to force him to say no so I have a legitimate reason to do terrible shit to them. Cuz I'm a dick. By the way, worship me or die." But the idea that there were a group of Hebrews that left Egypt is more reasonable when you take that out of the equation.

Still not sure Exodus is based on history... loose or not

[Nephew Twiddleton]

So, okay.

If we ponder for a moment, what if the Greek Gods _aren't_ real, as few now believe they are, but that the Trojan War did happen, what then caused the Trojan War?

The Trojan War actually is not mythology specifically, but legend. Mythology is a story that tries to make sense out of the universe and explain why things are the way they are. Legends are stories that are loosely based on history.

For example in the Bible, the Creation account is mythology, but Exodus is legend. It might not be 100% true, but there is some sort of history to it. So while Jehovah is present in both Genesis and Exodus, Genesis hinges on the existence of Jehovah, whereas Exodus does not. I find it kinda hard to swallow that God would tell Moses, "Tell Pharaoh to let you go, and I'm going to force him to say no so I have a legitimate reason to do terrible shit to them. Cuz I'm a dick. By the way, worship me or die." But the idea that there were a group of Hebrews that left Egypt is more reasonable when you take that out of the equation.

Still not sure Exodus is based on history... loose or not

Fair enough but they all had to come from somewhere.

[Prince Glittersnatch III]

So, okay.

If we ponder for a moment, what if the Greek Gods _aren't_ real, as few now believe they are, but that the Trojan War did happen, what then caused the Trojan War?

The Trojan War actually is not mythology specifically, but legend. Mythology is a story that tries to make sense out of the universe and explain why things are the way they are. Legends are stories that are loosely based on history.

For example in the Bible, the Creation account is mythology, but Exodus is legend. It might not be 100% true, but there is some sort of history to it. So while Jehovah is present in both Genesis and Exodus, Genesis hinges on the existence of Jehovah, whereas Exodus does not. I find it kinda hard to swallow that God would tell Moses, "Tell Pharaoh to let you go, and I'm going to force him to say no so I have a legitimate reason to do terrible shit to them. Cuz I'm a dick. By the way, worship me or die." But the idea that there were a group of Hebrews that left Egypt is more reasonable when you take that out of the equation.

Still not sure Exodus is based on history... loose or not

Fair enough but they all had to come from somewhere.

I heard an interesting theory.

There was a pharaoh whos name I cant remember. This pharaoh for some reason decided that the Egyptians had too many gods, so, he declared that there was only one true god. This was horribly unpopular with the people and especially with the priests so he ended up appointing alot of new priests who would teach his new monotheistic religion. When he died the next pharaoh gave in to the will of the people and reinstated the old religion.
Now for anyone who had honestly converted to the New religion and especially for the New priests this was horrible.

The theory I heard is that Moses was actually a priest of the unpopular religion, and that the "exodus" was him leading the oppressed followers of this religion to a place where they could practice it in peace. Over time this religion evolved into Judaism.

[Telarus]

[Warning: This got dumped in my head during my Art History course. You've been warned.]

That would be Akhenaten (originally Ahmenhotep IV, he renamed himself after his new deity), who posited the existence of a being ("Aten") that "was like a Sun unto the Stars, or a GOD unto the gods."

He did completely overhaul the Egyptian religious system (which had the curious effect of completely changing the artistic styles in use in Egypt at the time). The statues of Nefertiti are especially important to note here, as these were created to be viewed "in the round" (from all angles). Previous to Akhenaten's reign, statues were created from squared blocks of stone. The profiles of each angle were inscribed on each side of the block, and then carved downwards until the basic form was 'uncovered', and then detailed. This led to very stiff poses, and art that was optimally viewed from the front. Compare:

Old Style:


Akhenaten Era (Bust of his wife Nefertiti from the 'Amarna Period'):



Here's a pic of Akhenaten, his wife and daughters (the sun disk represents Aten):


He was a strange cat (no really, his statues don't look like any other Pharoh, very weird proportions):


The above art has lead to countless "Alien" theories, but this is the first time I've heard the theory that Moses was an ex-priest of Aten.

The dates for the Exodus are have a lot of controversy around them (and Ratatosk alluded to the story that the Exodus was made up whole cloth while the Hebrews were in captivity in Mesopotamia/Babylon). But I did find (a christian site) that mentions archeological data from the city of Amarna (Akhenaten's period was termed the "Amarna Period" because most relics were found there). I only skimmed it: http://www.crivoice.org/exodusdate.html


Interesting stuff.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Akhenaten was followed by his son, Tutankhamen (born Tutankhaten), who was followed by his General, Ai. THen someone else took over after Ai. Several generations later you had Rameses III (I think it was III) who is usually the one credited with being the pharoah in Exodus. Atenism would have been wiped out well before Moses, I think. However, the idea might have inspired him a little.

I had heard a hypothesis that the main reason that Moses chose monotheism was that all Hebrews would be united under one god and help solidify their cultural identity.

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Akhenaten was followed by his son, Tutankhamen (born Tutankhaten), who was followed by his General, Ai. THen someone else took over after Ai. Several generations later you had Rameses III (I think it was III) who is usually the one credited with being the pharoah in Exodus. Atenism would have been wiped out well before Moses, I think. However, the idea might have inspired him a little.

I had heard a hypothesis that the main reason that Moses chose monotheism was that all Hebrews would be united under one god and help solidify their cultural identity.

Well, the larger issue is that the supposed timeline which puts Exodus in the 1500s BC is fraught with issues, IF the Hebrews had anything to do with Egypt it may have been well before and simply manipulated through stories over time. As for Moses picking Monotheism... we don't know that he did, or that he existed... Hell we don't really have evidence that Hebrews existed as a coherent nation until almost a thousand years after the traditional Exodus date.

The whole damn book is screwy, 

[The Great Pope of OUTSIDE]

Another point to be made is that Judaism actually outdates the Egyptians. Or at least, the Great Exodus and Moses anyway. Moses came from a long line of ancestry and legend that was the beginning of Judaism, and (I could be wrong on this) but I _think_ the first major Hebrew legend and perhaps the beginning of the Hebrews themselves was the story of Joseph and his twelve (dickhead) brothers. Egypt existed in that story, was actually involved in it. (In case you don't know, it's where Joseph is sold as a slave to the Pharaoh by his brothers, is imprisoned for allegedly being a pervert, then predicts seven years of feast and seven years of famine, and the Pharaoh finds out and appoints Joseph to a high position, where he is able to save Egypt and the surrounding nations from dying during the seven years of famine.) Anyway, since that time Hebrews and Egyptians were closely connected, but there was a shift in leadership, and the Egyptians started making Hebrew slaves, and THEN well after that we have Moses.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Another point to be made is that Judaism actually outdates the Egyptians. Or at least, the Great Exodus and Moses anyway. Moses came from a long line of ancestry and legend that was the beginning of Judaism, and (I could be wrong on this) but I _think_ the first major Hebrew legend and perhaps the beginning of the Hebrews themselves was the story of Joseph and his twelve (dickhead) brothers. Egypt existed in that story, was actually involved in it. (In case you don't know, it's where Joseph is sold as a slave to the Pharaoh by his brothers, is imprisoned for allegedly being a pervert, then predicts seven years of feast and seven years of famine, and the Pharaoh finds out and appoints Joseph to a high position, where he is able to save Egypt and the surrounding nations from dying during the seven years of famine.) Anyway, since that time Hebrews and Egyptians were closely connected, but there was a shift in leadership, and the Egyptians started making Hebrew slaves, and THEN well after that we have Moses.

Not sure I follow. The way I understand it is the only way you can hypothesize that Judaism is older than Egypt is continuity form the Sumerians via Abraham (who came from Ur). But even then, it would go from a progression of Sumerian Polytheism>Babylonian (Semitic) Polytheism>Hebrew Polytheism>Hebrew Henotheism>ancient Hebrew monotheism (early Judaism)

[The Great Pope of OUTSIDE]

But the monotheistic aspects of Judaism preclude the Exodus. Mostly this is a response to this: "The theory I heard is that Moses was actually a priest of the unpopular religion, and that the "exodus" was him leading the oppressed followers of this religion to a place where they could practice it in peace. Over time this religion evolved into Judaism," pointing out the Judaism came before the Exodus, it didn't evolve from the Exodus.

[Telarus]

I've got to apply my doubt, there. Back then, the "Shekinah" was still a big part of the Judaic tradition. In fact, getting back to Eris and the snubbed divine female, Asherah(later identified with Astarte)/Shekinah, the Queen of Heaven, was a major player all the way up through pre-reformation Jerusalem. Most of Deuteronomy is political propaganda applauding the destruction of Asherah's temples and banning the burning of cannabis to the queen of heaven "on the high places". Interesting enough, YWHW spoke to Moses through the Shekinah/Pillar-of-Smoke, and it was this same "Pillar of Smoke" that led Moses and his tribe through the wilderness. Modern theology always discards Her identity as a separate Consciousness. In 'The Woman's Book of Myths and Secrets', Feminist Scholar Barbara Walker explains:

the Old Testament 'Ashera' is translated 'grove', without any explanation that the sacred
grove represented the Goddess' genital center, birthplace of all things. In the matriarchal period,
Hebrews worshiped the Goddess in groves (1 Kings 14:23), later cut down by patriarchal
reformers who burned the bones of Ashera's priests on their own altars (2 Chronicles 24:4-5).

The Songs of Solomon are also regarded as hymn to the Queen of Heaven. Solomon was pretty obviously involved in the Asherah cult once you know the above symbolism.

    SOLOMON LOVED YAHWEH; HE FOLLOWED THE PRECEPTS OF DAVID HIS FATHER, EXCEPT THAT HE OFFERED SACRIFICE AND INCENSE ON THE HIGH PLACES. (I Kings 3:3)

and

    WHEN SOLOMON GREW OLD HIS WIVES SWAYED HIS HEART TO OTHER GODS; AND HIS HEART WAS NOT WHOLLY WITH YAHWEH HIS GOD AS HIS FATHER DAVID'S HAD BEEN. SOLOMON BECAME A FOLLOWER OF ASTARTE, THE GODDESS OF THE SIDONIANS. (I Kings 11:4-5)

Interesting connections have been recorded by Chris Bennet between these practices and the similar practices of the Scythians. Doubly interesting if you follow my links of the Eris/Enyo-Ma/Bellona/Rhea Goddess to the Scythian Tabiti/Krona-Rhea, and also realize that the Semitic tribes traded and warred with the Scythians (who they knew them as the "Ashkenaz" people). The tent ceremonies practiced by the Scythians (as noted by Herotodus) also have quite a lot in common with the tent ceremonies practiced by Moses (raising the Shekinah/Pillar of Smoke within the Tent of the Tabernacle).

[The Great Pope of OUTSIDE]

So....Solomon was effectively worshiping Eris when he turned away from YHWH?

[Telarus]

Depends on how 'universal' you want to make the Eris goddess-form. It's hard not to come to that conclusion when you realize that the Eris(Strife/Chaos) portrayed in the Greek myths by Name was esoterically identified by the cults with all these goddesses that hold the title "Queen of Heaven", especially the Cybele/Enyo-Ma/Rhea core personality. I don't have the direct historical links to make that connection explicit, as I haven't looked into how the Asherah/Astarte cult was politically involved with neighboring kingdoms or cults.


But, yeah, basically.  See the first Commandment of the Pentabarf.

[The Great Pope of OUTSIDE]

Perhaps Pho could clear things up on this issue?

[Phox]

Nope, sorry. I haven't gotten to cross-cultural mythology yet, aside from Greek/Roman (does that even count?). There is a large body of work suggesting a similar idea though. I believe I found some by googling "dark goddess" many years ago. I have neither the time nor the inclination to revisit that topic now, though.

[The Great Pope of OUTSIDE]

Alrighty.

I guess you just never know who has the best tidbits of information