The Discordian Menace

[Jasper]

I know it's the wrong word, but I was hoping nobody would notice.  I still can't think of the word I was looking for. 

Anyway, I think people know what I meant.  It's contradictory to say that "there is no such thing as truth" is true.

[MMIX]

I know it's the wrong word, but I was hoping nobody would notice.  I still can't think of the word I was looking for. 

Anyway, I think people know what I meant.  It's contradictory to say that "there is no such thing as truth" is true.

"hoping nobody would notice" 

anyhoo, axiomatic probably does mean what you thought it does - since you were going for the "it is an unquestioned basic truth" angle while AG picked up on the "unquestioned = unproven" thing and called it the way he saw it.
It is only contradictory in terms of the internal consistency (or otherwise) of language and language can be a limiting factor in terms of communication.

[Jasper]

I am not so sure.  I mean, what you're saying sounds true, but I subscribe to the wisdom that if you can't explain something in words, you don't understand it.  Language may not be able to describe every idea imaginable, and what it does describe can never be conveyed completely by words alone, but words are still the best medium at our disposal for sharing some kind of truth, so it is kind of important that we say things that can be made sense of whenever possible.

[MMIX]

I am not so sure.  I mean, what you're saying sounds true, but I subscribe to the wisdom that if you can't explain something in words, you don't understand it.  Language may not be able to describe every idea imaginable, and what it does describe can never be conveyed completely by words alone, but words are still the best medium at our disposal for sharing some kind of truth, so it is kind of important that we say things that can be made sense of whenever possible.

But I understand many things which I could not explain to you, and I am sure the reverse is true. You admit as much when you say that

Language may not be able to describe every idea imaginable, and what it does describe can never be conveyed completely by words alone

hmm we seem to be back to the same intractable problem as before . . .
plus you seem to be dissing all artistic languages as not being as good as verbals for conveying "truth" which is not only a debate for a different thread but just doesn't sound right to me.

[Jasper]

When I say 'good' I mean "effective at expressing exactly what was intended".  Artistic expressions, while very good, tend to differ in meaning a great deal based on who interprets it, and what mood they were in, etc.

But I understand many things which I could not explain to you, and I am sure the reverse is true.

I am actually trying to disagree.  We may feel a certain way about some things that we can't explain, but can we be said to understand them?  I think we need more than a vague inclination about something to really understand it.  I may have certain feelings and thoughts about a person, but I don't necessarily understand them.

[Doktor Howl]

But I understand many things which I could not explain to you,

Then you don't understand them.

[MMIX]

But I understand many things which I could not explain to you,

Then you don't understand them.

No, actually I understand them just fine, I am doubting your inclination/ability to understand them. There are no words which can open a resolutely closed mind.

[Don Coyote]

But I understand many things which I could not explain to you,

Then you don't understand them.

No, actually I understand them just fine, I am doubting your inclination/ability to understand them. There are no words which can open a resolutely closed mind.

Then you are placing the fault on someone else for failing to understand something well enough to explain it. If he doesn't accept your explanation that is different.

[Doktor Howl]

But I understand many things which I could not explain to you,

Then you don't understand them.

No, actually I understand them just fine, I am doubting your inclination/ability to understand them. There are no words which can open a resolutely closed mind.

Yes, I'm actually quite stupid.

[MMIX]

When I say 'good' I mean "effective at expressing exactly what was intended".  Artistic expressions, while very good, tend to differ in meaning a great deal based on who interprets it, and what mood they were in, etc.

and  are you trying to tell me that exactly the same caveats could not be used in relation to written/spoken language?

But I understand many things which I could not explain to you, and I am sure the reverse is true.

I am actually trying to disagree.  We may feel a certain way about some things that we can't explain, but can we be said to understand them?  I think we need more than a vague inclination about something to really understand it.  I may have certain feelings and thoughts about a person, but I don't necessarily understand them.

I suspect that very few of us, myself included, actually "understand" much about anything. Furthermore if the validity of my "understanding" is to be judged by its accurate transmission to a third party, well fuck that. I refuse to spend the rest of my life trapped in what could be described as the viva voce exam from hell.

[Doktor Howl]

Okay.

If you can't explain it, then you can't communicate it.  If you can't communicate it, it dies with you.

But I am unable to understand anything anyway, so there's no real loss.

[MMIX]

But I understand many things which I could not explain to you,

Then you don't understand them.

No, actually I understand them just fine, I am doubting your inclination/ability to understand them. There are no words which can open a resolutely closed mind.

Yes, I'm actually quite stupid.

Its not an issue of bright/stupid, but then you know that don't you? As an aside, I used to be very bright but then I gave it up. It was easier than giving up smoking, now I come to think of it . . .
So, its ok to be stupid because there ain't nobody here but us stupid people
So being as how I am stupid I am going to shoot myself in the other foot by pointing out that when I used to be bright I used to teach anthro 101 students about the differences between the ways that different cultures "see" the world and the limitations which language amongst other factors put on our perceptions. You've probably come across some of this sort of stuff. e.g. "Inuit have 30 words for snow" that kind of thing. e.g. The ways in which colour perception is measurably affected by the ways in which  the native language deals with colour differentiation words - does your language have a word for blue AND a word for green. e.g. Culturally specific syndromes, particular ailments which only manifest in certain cultural contexts  like piblotoq, Arctic hysteria where patients rip off their clothes run around madly, roll in the snow, suffer from glossolalia.  I somehow doubt that one ever happens on Tucson though I'm sure there may be something akin? My old boss did her early research on non-first language English speakers in Eire, and she was permanently frustrated by the fact that there were even sounds in their speech that she was not able to hear. You are looking for simple answers where there are none. It is a fucking miracle that we can communicate at all since language is such a dubious medium. And then you have body language, which on some levels offers a better chance of getting at the "truth" than straight spoken language.
Yes, usually language is our best bet for getting our truths across but there are some things which just aren't simply amenable to translation, and hence understanding. Language is a heuristic we use for communication. But that's all it is a heuristic, if you could actually make yourself understood in plain language then we would never have developed poetry, which may or may not be a good thing.

Hwyl Howl, hwyl

[Doktor Howl]

But I understand many things which I could not explain to you,

Then you don't understand them.

No, actually I understand them just fine, I am doubting your inclination/ability to understand them. There are no words which can open a resolutely closed mind.

Yes, I'm actually quite stupid.

Its not an issue of bright/stupid, but then you know that don't you? As an aside, I used to be very bright but then I gave it up. It was easier than giving up smoking, now I come to think of it . . .
So, its ok to be stupid because there ain't nobody here but us stupid people
So being as how I am stupid I am going to shoot myself in the other foot by pointing out that when I used to be bright I used to teach anthro 101 students about the differences between the ways that different cultures "see" the world and the limitations which language amongst other factors put on our perceptions. You've probably come across some of this sort of stuff. e.g. "Inuit have 30 words for snow" that kind of thing. e.g. The ways in which colour perception is measurably affected by the ways in which  the native language deals with colour differentiation words - does your language have a word for blue AND a word for green. e.g. Culturally specific syndromes, particular ailments which only manifest in certain cultural contexts  like piblotoq, Arctic hysteria where patients rip off their clothes run around madly, roll in the snow, suffer from glossolalia.  I somehow doubt that one ever happens on Tucson though I'm sure there may be something akin? My old boss did her early research on non-first language English speakers in Eire, and she was permanently frustrated by the fact that there were even sounds in their speech that she was not able to hear. You are looking for simple answers where there are none. It is a fucking miracle that we can communicate at all since language is such a dubious medium. And then you have body language, which on some levels offers a better chance of getting at the "truth" than straight spoken language.
Yes, usually language is our best bet for getting our truths across but there are some things which just aren't simply amenable to translation, and hence understanding. Language is a heuristic we use for communication. But that's all it is a heuristic, if you could actually make yourself understood in plain language then we would never have developed poetry, which may or may not be a good thing.

Sorry.  Went right over my empty little head.

[MMIX]

Sorry.  Went right over my empty little head.

[Jasper]

Well, I am an asshole about this sort of thing because I care about it.   If I was talking to something that was not obviously human like me, and I was trying to determine if it was sentient and intelligent, I would try to determine whether it understood the things I wanted to express to it.  I would do so with language, preferably, and much lower on the list would be impressionistic painting and interpretive dance.

Short of direct mind-to-mind interface, which I would not do under almost any circumstance, I cannot find out what is known to myself and others beyond all doubt, but the use of language used properly can remove much doubt.  Enough to be carrying on with, anyway.