The Discordian Menace

[MMIX]

Well, I am an asshole about this sort of thing because I care about it.   If I was talking to something that was not obviously human like me, and I was trying to determine if it was sentient and intelligent, I would try to determine whether it understood the things I wanted to express to it.  I would do so with language, preferably, and much lower on the list would be impressionistic painting and interpretive dance.

OK, so the Creature from the Black Lagoon turns up and your first reaction is to try and hold a conversation with it? My bet is that pantomime actions, you know -  interpretive dance without all the arty farty social underpinnings, grunting and pointing really, would be one of your first gambits. And scratching in the sand, the mother and father of the graphic arts, would probably be useful. You would be hard pressed to communicate with someone who was obviously human but did not share your cultural/linguistic heritage, are you really going to base your assessment of this alien's sentience on whether it speaks english? [or any recognisable human language, like they do in the movies]

Short of direct mind-to-mind interface, which I would not do under almost any circumstance, I cannot find out what is known to myself and others beyond all doubt, but the use of language used properly can remove much doubt.  Enough to be carrying on with, anyway. 

see, that's what I said earlier, its a useful heuristic. Half the time I don't understand what the flying fuck people on the net are saying [yes Howl, if you are still bothering to read, I realise that its because I'm stupid,] sometimes it is generational, sometimes its because we don't all share the same interests/knowledge base, and often it is based in national/cultural difference.

Proper use of language can indeed remove much doubt, but not all, and sometimes it is just enough to go with the flow and to understand that you don't understand and more to the point, to not actually give a damn. If the penny drops eventually that's great, if it doesn't, well it doesn't, que sera sera.

[Doktor Howl]

OK, so the Creature from the Black Lagoon turns up and your first reaction is to try and hold a conversation with it?  

I'd shoot the bastard.  Humans are bad enough.

[MMIX]

OK, so the Creature from the Black Lagoon turns up and your first reaction is to try and hold a conversation with it?  

I'd shoot the bastard.  Humans are bad enough.

Damn, Howl, you are implacable

[Doktor Howl]

OK, so the Creature from the Black Lagoon turns up and your first reaction is to try and hold a conversation with it?  

I'd shoot the bastard.  Humans are bad enough.

Damn, Howl, you are implacable

He's a biped, and it wouldn't count as murder.

BOOM.  One less Warwick native gilled freak stinking the place up.

Speaking of fish people, where the fuck is Dimo, anyway?

[Epimetheus]

[MMIX]

OK, so the Creature from the Black Lagoon turns up and your first reaction is to try and hold a conversation with it?  

I'd shoot the bastard.  Humans are bad enough.

Damn, Howl, you are implacable

He's a biped, and it wouldn't count as murder.

BOOM.  One less Warwick native gilled freak stinking the place up.

Speaking of fish people, where the fuck is Dimo, anyway?

Maybe he's the one that got away . . .
thank you and good night   

[Doktor Howl]

OK, so the Creature from the Black Lagoon turns up and your first reaction is to try and hold a conversation with it?  

I'd shoot the bastard.  Humans are bad enough.

Damn, Howl, you are implacable

He's a biped, and it wouldn't count as murder.

BOOM.  One less Warwick native gilled freak stinking the place up.

Speaking of fish people, where the fuck is Dimo, anyway?

Maybe he's the one that got away . . .
thank you and good night   

Why would you do such a thing?

[Cuddlefish]

OK, so the Creature from the Black Lagoon turns up and your first reaction is to try and hold a conversation with it?  

I'd shoot the bastard.  Humans are bad enough.

Damn, Howl, you are implacable

He's a biped, and it wouldn't count as murder.

BOOM.  One less Warwick native gilled freak stinking the place up.

Speaking of fish people, where the fuck is Dimo, anyway?

I'm a WEST Warwick native, FFS. Stop grouping me in with those filthy Warwickites.

But, really, what the hell is this topic about?

[Jasper]

It was about the tragedy of machiavellian social protocols in society until I shat and now it's about the nature of knowledge between intelligences.  I think.

[Jasper]

Oh right, adding to the discussion. 

MMIX:  In that extreme example I would try to figure out the language it spoke, if any.  If it didn't, I'd lose interest in it's ideas and capture it with my pokeball.

[BadBeast]

Okay, I see what you're saying and I think we're on the same page.  But I was serious when I said that you can't truthfully argue against the existence of truth itself.  It's axiomatic. 

(Unless Beast was simply ignoring the rules, which is about as par for Discordian dialogue as The Capitalization Meme.)

I wasn't arguing about truth, (small 't'') per se, just the concept that it can ever be absolute.

[Cramulus]

language isn't always the best way to convey information.

for that matter, some types of information are better transmitted non-linguistically.

Like if I wanted to teach you how to paint, or how to turn a clay pot, or how to fight, it's better to demonstrate it than to write the information.

maps and diagrams convey more information, and can often better illustrate the relationship between things than a verbal description

art transmits tons of information nonverbally. Like if I wanted to tell you about what it was like when X happened, sometimes a photograph or a painting is better able to capture it than a written narrative.

you can even convey information simply by juxtaposing certain symbols. Look at Banksy for example - some of his work is a really nuanced critique of things. a lot of meaning is wrapped up into a juxtaposition between an image and the space it's in

[Jasper]

Okay, I see what you're saying and I think we're on the same page.  But I was serious when I said that you can't truthfully argue against the existence of truth itself.  It's axiomatic. 

(Unless Beast was simply ignoring the rules, which is about as par for Discordian dialogue as The Capitalization Meme.)

I wasn't arguing about truth, (small 't'') per se, just the concept that it can ever be absolute.

Oh, in that case I agree absolutely.

Tee hee. 

[Jasper]

language isn't always the best way to convey information.

for that matter, some types of information are better transmitted non-linguistically.

Like if I wanted to teach you how to paint, or how to turn a clay pot, or how to fight, it's better to demonstrate it than to write the information.

maps and diagrams convey more information, and can often better illustrate the relationship between things than a verbal description

art transmits tons of information nonverbally. Like if I wanted to tell you about what it was like when X happened, sometimes a photograph or a painting is better able to capture it than a written narrative.

you can even convey information simply by juxtaposing certain symbols. Look at Banksy for example - some of his work is a really nuanced critique of things. a lot of meaning is wrapped up into a juxtaposition between an image and the space it's in

This is true, but I was saying language was the "best" form of communication for its versatility and it's accuracy.  If I told you "red gears go in the brown box and blue gears go in the trash", or some other kind of information, idea, instruction, or description, or any kind of abstraction at all, it's less open to interpretation than a diagram. 

I suspect the important difference is that language is optimal for objective facts, and nonverbals are better suited to subjective states that have ambiguous or sub-lingual content.

[Cramulus]

with caveats, and "non-lingual" instead of "sub-lingual", and I agree








shit, that may be the spaggiest sentence I've ever typed