REEFER MADNESS!!!!!!

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

that is probably the most interesting AND specifically detailed account I have read of the biological basis for medicinal marijuana use. Thanks!

THIS.

[AFK]

It isn't without its side effects, however.  I'm talking social side effects.  Such as medical marijuana being diverted to non-prescribed users, including minors.  AND, the message it (intentionally or unintentionally) to youth which is that it is okay to use because it is prescribed.  (even though it hasn't been prescribed to them.) 

I'm not saying this as an argument against medical marijuana, per se, but pointing out that the benefits do not come without costs. 

[BabylonHoruv]

It isn't without its side effects, however.  I'm talking social side effects.  Such as medical marijuana being diverted to non-prescribed users, including minors.  AND, the message it (intentionally or unintentionally) to youth which is that it is okay to use because it is prescribed.  (even though it hasn't been prescribed to them.) 

I'm not saying this as an argument against medical marijuana, per se, but pointing out that the benefits do not come without costs. 

I think it can only really be viewed as a possible alternative to other forms of treatment and the costs and benefits weighed out.

It's less addictive, less physically harmful, and less expensive than narcotics.  I really can't see any reason why it's not rolled out as a widescale replacement for narcotics for chronic pain relief.  Not for intense recovering from surgery in a hospital pain relief, that requires the industrial strength pain relief that only a Narcotic can give, but for Fibromyalgia, Chronic back pain, and so forth.

In other cases marijuana may not be the best option, but in this case it is preferable in pretty much every way to what is commonly prescribed.

[East Coast Hustle]

That, and as much as I agree with RWHN about the need to do everything possible to ensure that medical pot doesn't get diverted to the underage black market, I think it's still preferable to the same thing happening with opiate-based pills.

Just as an aside, what seems to have happened to this point in WA is that the legitimate medical market and the black market have almost completely split from each other, and the legal market is winning handily. Pretty much the only people still growing and selling on the black market are the scumbags who WANT to corner the underage market. Without getting in to the argument of how much of the legal use is ACTUALLY medicinal, it seems (strictly anecdotal and observational evidence on my part) that the further the WA pot market is regulated and dragged into the light, the more the black market shrivels and becomes harder to access. If you polled high school kids in the Seattle area, I almost guarantee that a majority of them would tell you that it's easier for them to get pills or coke than it is to get weed. This does not seem to be the case here in OR, which in spite of it's legalization of medical marijuana has a much less regulated and open environment. Here, the pot market is mostly still black-market (even if the cops generally don't care much) and if I wanted to cop an 8th and didn't know anyone, the first thing I'd do is head down to Franklin High to ask the boys that hang out at the bus stop. Now, Oregon is also in much closer proximity to large outdoor grow areas (southern OR/northern CA), and that may also have an effect on the nature of the market here, but it strikes me as an interesting observation.

[El Sjaako]

It isn't without its side effects, however.  I'm talking social side effects.  Such as medical marijuana being diverted to non-prescribed users, including minors.  AND, the message it (intentionally or unintentionally) to youth which is that it is okay to use because it is prescribed.  (even though it hasn't been prescribed to them.) 

I'm not saying this as an argument against medical marijuana, per se, but pointing out that the benefits do not come without costs. 

These side effects are of criminalization, really. I live in the Netherlands, and most young people here don't use weed. One of the reasons is the kind of drug users we see: there are few artist glamorizing weed, and most of the people you see in coffeeshops are old. Housewives in their fifties. Working class men in paint speckled uniforms. Most of them are  friendly and interesting people, but they're not the kind of thing young people aspire to.

[East Coast Hustle]

I think it's time I shared this story:

My dad was diagnosed with three separate cancers at the same time. Terminal stage 4 in the colon, and also cancer in the liver and lungs and according to the oncologists, the three had sprung up independently and were not related to each other.

Needless to say, the reactors in the first generation of nuclear-powered submarines were pretty dirty and not well shielded. My dad ran the reactor on the 2nd nuke sub ever put in the water by the US Navy. They had seen his condition before, in the other guys that ran those 1st-gen nuke subs.

My dad was a combat-injured veteran. He had 100% medical coverage by the VA. His country's promise to take care of him in exchange for the services he had provided his country. When he was diagnosed, the doctors told him that with a 3 month course of experimentally intense chemotherapy, he might get another 6 good months followed by one or two bad ones before the end.

The chemo was brutal. If that was the VA doc's idea of "good months", I cringed at the thought of what the bad months might be like. They prescribed him massive amounts of morphine right from the start. 15mg IR and 60mg ER, which are like the Bentley of morphine pills. He took them at first, but they made him confused and junked out, and he HATED that. Now, he had been a recreational smoker on and off through his life, but had not been smoking for the past few years because he held a Class A CDL which requires a periodic recertification including a drug screen. He kept the morphine for the occasions when the pain got really intense, but for the most part managed his pain, nausea, and lack of appetite with pot.

As the disease ran its course, this turned into ALOT of pot.

Good pot, since he had to smoke it (couldn't be guaranteed of keeping it down long enough if he ate it) but his lungs couldn't tolerate too much of it.

Expensive pot. Even though a few of the old growers in the area who knew my dad would occasionally drop an ounce on me as a gift, I ended up spending a whole fucking lot of money on pot for my dad.

Pot the VA, as a federally-funded agency, could not and would not recommend or prescribe.

The organization that, in theory, said "don't worry, we'll take care of you as best we can" had nothing to offer but an undignified end to life clouded in a heavy morphine addiction. Which, of course, causes constipation, a condition which would have probably proved gruesomely fatal to a person with a tumor already blocking most of their lower intestine.

"Thanks for your service, here's that death of massive infection caused by a ruptured bowel that you wanted. Don't worry, though, you'll be so high on morphine you won't know what's going on. Unless you develop such a tolerance that when a pain like THAT comes along, you'll feel everything."

So the VA did what they could, and I did what I could, and my dad lived 18 months past his diagnosis and all but the last 3 or 4 months could reasonably qualify as "good" time. And I give alot of the credit for that to the marijuana, which kept the constant low-grade pain and nausea at bay and gave him an appetite for awhile. Frankly, I think that "giving the munchies" is vastly underrated as a potential medicinal property. Your body can't fight a disease if it doesn't have any fuel.

So at the end, the combination of not being able to work, having to buy all of my dad's pot out of my own savings, and the incidental expenses of his care not covered by the VA (gas to appointments, all of my own living expenses, etc.) left me completely penniless when he died. He didn't own his house, and the restaurant I had been cheffing at until I had to quit to take care of him full-time had just closed for the season, so there I was in rural Maine in November - broke, unemployed, and soon to be homeless. Funny thing, though. Even though he never really started taking the morphine regularly until the last couple months, he was still getting his monthly prescription mailed to him every month for the 18 months between his diagnosis and his death.

And in a position of desperation that might not have existed if medical marijuana were legalized at the federal level, guess how I was able to come up with the money to move 2 people and all of their stuff across the country to WA and be able to pay rent until gainful legal employment was found?

I do believe (hipsters correct me if I'm wrong) that this falls under the correct usage of the phrase "Ironic, huh?"

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/1KO7jS/www.jackherer.com/archives/clip-from-family-feud-is-an-instant-pot-humor-classic-what-is-something-people-pass-around/

For me, its not an issue of kids vs. adults or medical vs. recreational. Its simply this:

My Body, My Right

I am the owner of my body. If I want to put a drug in it (or if I had a womb, take a pile of cells out of it), then the government should keep its fucking nose out of my life. If I am dying and want to visit Dr. Kovorkian then I should be allowed. If I am dying and want to get stoned then I should. If I work all day, in a stressful environment and want to come home and relax with a joint from pot I grew in my fucking basement, then where is the fault and the harm? Its not funding terrorists, its not going to little kids.

If I sell some of that to my friend, then where is the harm?
If I sell some of that to a kid.. THEN put my ass in jail.

Regarding the "Think of the Chidlren" argument: I had many chances to smoke pot when I was young. For fucksake I worked with roadies from Steppenwolf, Jesus Christ Superstar, etc etc and every fucking time I got offered a joint. However, I turned it down because my parents taught me drugs were bad. It was only after I realized every other thing they had taught me was bullshit that I tried pot. Then I found that what I'd been taught about it was bullshit too.

So was what I got taught about acid...

As for the Feds trying to argue addiction... well in a nation that produces huge tobacco crops, Jim Beam, Jack Daniels and Budweiser... I can't hear the debate for all that noise of hypocrisy. How many people have died from smoking Pot? How many from Tobacco? How many from Alcohol?

In the end, I respect RWHN and what he does specifically... I don't think anyone should smoke pot until they're adults or at least until they've gotten their life off to some kind of start. The rest of this abortion of a 'drug war' has no place in a sane society.

[Triple Zero]

Psychological addictions can be very powerful and cause very real harm to an individual.  And as someone who works in the field, and who's worked with people who've been addicted to marijuana, I can attest to that.  Addiction is addiction.  If you are using a substance to an extent, that you cannot quit it because of the withdrawal symptoms, that is addiction.  Word games and pedantry don't change that fact.  

I'm surprised that someone who works in your field seriously would argue that the difference between physical addiction and psychological addiction is just word games and pedantry.

I'm sure glad that "the field" over here is able to draw that distinction (I'm assuming. Some of my friends work with addicts, I'll ask).

That way we can get heroin junkies medical help, but kids addicted to online computer games can get psychological therapy.

The addictiveness of pot and online computer games is the same kind of addiction. Both psychological. It's also about just as bad, and the evidence for online computer game addiction is pretty damn strong.

Heroin, cocaine, alcohol and tobacco are addictive in a very different kind of way, which requires very different methods of treatment, and carry much larger risks of addiction.

10 cigs in two days can be enough to get addicted for life.

You can't even begin to develop a psychological dependency in that short of a timespan (regardless if it's pot or computer games).

So I disagree that "addiction is addiction" and psychological addiction is completely different and much less dangerous than physical addiction. Still dangerous, just a couple of orders of magnitude less so.



(edit: this sort of reasoning makes me angry, what I wrote before was a less nice and more condescending version of the above. edited to improve discussion)

[AFK]

No shit.  I didn't say anything about all addictions being treated with the same modalities of treatment.  I worked in a goddamn substance abuse treatment agency, so yeah, I kind of understand that.  My point, which I think was pretty damn clear, is that you just because something has a psychological addiction, doesn't mean it is the same as all kinds of psychological addiction.  There are huge differences between a kid who is heavily addicted to pot and a kid who is addicted to WOW.  I'm sorry but that is the goddamn truth.  It isn't some "no big deal" issue.  It is a very real issue with very real consequences for kids. 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

No shit.  I didn't say anything about all addictions being treated with the same modalities of treatment.  I worked in a goddamn substance abuse treatment agency, so yeah, I kind of understand that.  My point, which I think was pretty damn clear, is that you just because something has a psychological addiction, doesn't mean it is the same as all kinds of psychological addiction.  There are huge differences between a kid who is heavily addicted to pot and a kid who is addicted to WOW.  I'm sorry but that is the goddamn truth.  It isn't some "no big deal" issue.  It is a very real issue with very real consequences for kids. 

There's no sense getting wrapped around the axle, RWHN.  This is a matter that people are going to disagree on, no matter how sensible the arguments on either side.

[BabylonHoruv]

No shit.  I didn't say anything about all addictions being treated with the same modalities of treatment.  I worked in a goddamn substance abuse treatment agency, so yeah, I kind of understand that.  My point, which I think was pretty damn clear, is that you just because something has a psychological addiction, doesn't mean it is the same as all kinds of psychological addiction.  There are huge differences between a kid who is heavily addicted to pot and a kid who is addicted to WOW.  I'm sorry but that is the goddamn truth.  It isn't some "no big deal" issue.  It is a very real issue with very real consequences for kids. 

Could you explain the differences?  Because the withdrawal symptoms you mentioned are the same either way.

[Triple Zero]

No shit.  I didn't say anything about all addictions being treated with the same modalities of treatment.  I worked in a goddamn substance abuse treatment agency, so yeah, I kind of understand that.  My point, which I think was pretty damn clear, is that you just because something has a psychological addiction, doesn't mean it is the same as all kinds of psychological addiction.

What's with all the "damn" all of a sudden?

Either you can assume good faith, accept that maybe your point was not entirely clear to me,
OR you can insist that your point is "pretty damn clear" and imply I'm deliberately misrepresenting what you try to say.

One of those options is suitable in a discussion where grown-up people try to achieve a mutual understanding. The other is used when one party knows they're right, wants to say it, and doesn't really care what the other has to say.

Your point wasn't entirely clear to me. What you just wrote sounds pretty much like the opposite to "addiction is addiction" to me.

So yes I was pretty shocked what I thought you wrote, exactly BECAUSE you worked in a substance abuse treatment agency, you know that I know that.

Listen, I want you to explain your point of view in a way that makes sense to me. I'm not here trying to trick you, score points or anything.

There are huge differences between a kid who is heavily addicted to pot and a kid who is addicted to WOW.  I'm sorry but that is the goddamn truth.

I shouldn't have said "kids" but "people addicted to online computer games".

And it's not immediately obvious to me that a person addicted to pot is worse than a person addicted to WoW.

I've seen people addicted to both and from the perspective of addiction, it seemed pretty comparable to me. Both were in a bad spot in life, filled it up with an addiction and wasted away a year of their life and studies. Then, maybe I've never seen a "heavy" pot addict.

There's no sense getting wrapped around the axle, RWHN.  This is a matter that people are going to disagree on, no matter how sensible the arguments on either side.

I don't mind disagreeing, I just like a mutual understanding, and especially to know where exactly the disagreement lies. I really really want to know where's the "switch", why does RWHN come to a different conclusion than me? But maybe I'm having a different discussion than RWHN is having. I definitely don't want to wrap him around any axle.

[East Coast Hustle]

I pretty much totally agree with RWHN on what he and his work are trying to accomplish, I just think the methods currently in use are totally counterproductive. For some reason, though, my extensive personal experience in these matters seems to be dismissed out of hand because there's not a published study that goes along with it, which is why I'm sometimes given to fits of rhetoric.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I pretty much totally agree with RWHN on what he and his work are trying to accomplish, I just think the methods currently in use are totally counterproductive. For some reason, though, my extensive personal experience in these matters seems to be dismissed out of hand because there's not a published study that goes along with it, which is why I'm sometimes given to fits of rhetoric.

RWHN believes in what he's doing, which I am sure is good work, in both senses of the term.

I just don't care.  Immature monkeys are still monkeys, and I honestly don't care if they become the next Einstein or shoot themselves full of junk.

TGRR,
Misanthropy just a little out of control.

[El Sjaako]

I've seen people addicted to both and from the perspective of addiction, it seemed pretty comparable to me. Both were in a bad spot in life, filled it up with an addiction and wasted away a year of their life and studies. Then, maybe I've never seen a "heavy" pot addict.

I agree with you, I just want to add: You live in Europe, so a lot of the people that think they are addicted to weed are (also) addicted to the tobacco they put in their joints.