Freedom isn't Free

[BabylonHoruv]

Wait.

Terrorists are fighting for our freedom?

STEP OFF, MISTER MAN!
\

yes.  Terrorists as defined by the Patriot act.

So, John Brown would have been okay, if it weren't for the PATRIOT Act?   

Dok,
Didn't realize murdering children was okay before that law was passed.

I wasn't arguing against the patriot act.  I was using it's definitions. 

And John Brown was definitely fighting for our freedoms (with our defined as humanity in General, his specific focus was black people)  he was doing it in a bad way but yes, he was absolutely fighting for our freedoms.

Um, no he wasn't.

Really?  Why, in your opinion, did he kill those children?

[BabylonHoruv]

Ok, I definitely do not like anarchists now.

It was all done for God. Or Allah. Or The Perfect State™. Or communism. Or Capitalism and "free" markets. Or the superior tribe's right to expand. Or the superior race's need for cultural purity. It is the Holy Peoples' Will, and though unfortunate, these things must be done, do you understand? You can't make omelets without breaking eggs, and you can't make Big Things happen without breaking children.

Higher purpose is what drives people to make sacrifices.  Yes, most terrorists are ideological fanatics, they aren't going to be willing to take the risks necessary otherwise.  That includes the best, Ghandi for instance

(yes, I just called Ghandi a terrorist,  by the definitions I am using he absolutely was one.  He wreaked economic terror on the colonial system in India)

So, yeah, under the PATRIOT Act, which article makes Gandhi a terrorist?

You know, the paragraph about the terrorists. That one over there...

OP, really, who are you targeting with this? If what you're actually talking about activists and protestors and not people who blow up children and other innocent people because THAT'LL SURE SHOW THE GOVERNMENT!, then most people with a brain in their head aren't going to agree that these people should be considered terrorists despite what Mr. Government says and it'll just sound like you're supporting the blowing people up guys.

People who take the government's word at face value will likely just agree that these people are trouble-makers, and the word "terrorist" will just spark that knee-jerk reaction that brings to mind blowing-people-up guys.

And the government will just put you on the terrorist watch list for supporting terrorists.

My point was not that activists and protestors are not terrorists.  Nor was it about the over broad usage of the word as defined by the current government.  It was about the fact that these people are vital defenders of our freedoms.

[Adios]

Wait.

Terrorists are fighting for our freedom?

STEP OFF, MISTER MAN!
\

yes.  Terrorists as defined by the Patriot act.

So, John Brown would have been okay, if it weren't for the PATRIOT Act?   

Dok,
Didn't realize murdering children was okay before that law was passed.

I wasn't arguing against the patriot act.  I was using it's definitions. 

And John Brown was definitely fighting for our freedoms (with our defined as humanity in General, his specific focus was black people)  he was doing it in a bad way but yes, he was absolutely fighting for our freedoms.

Um, no he wasn't.

Really?  Why, in your opinion, did he kill those children?

Because he was a rampaging murderer.

[BabylonHoruv]

Wait.

Terrorists are fighting for our freedom?

STEP OFF, MISTER MAN!
\

yes.  Terrorists as defined by the Patriot act.

So, John Brown would have been okay, if it weren't for the PATRIOT Act?   

Dok,
Didn't realize murdering children was okay before that law was passed.

I wasn't arguing against the patriot act.  I was using it's definitions. 

And John Brown was definitely fighting for our freedoms (with our defined as humanity in General, his specific focus was black people)  he was doing it in a bad way but yes, he was absolutely fighting for our freedoms.

Um, no he wasn't.

Really?  Why, in your opinion, did he kill those children?

Because he was a rampaging murderer.

I have not seen any analysis of him that said he killed from some sort of pathological need to kill, like a serial killer.

His views were certainly rather distorted, he dehumanized his opponents and did things that are unacceptable even in a life or death conflict, but that doesn't mean he wasn't fighting on the right side.  The fire bombing of Dresden was also an absolute monstrosity, doesn't change the fact that it was perpetrated against a nation which was pretty absolutely the bad guys.  (I prefer the Dresden bombing because the Nazi's were certainly badguys, it included about as many innocent deaths as Nagasaki, and it was perpetrated as a part of an active war, not as a way to get a surrender from a mostly defeated nation.)

[Adios]

Did you even read all this thread?

[BabylonHoruv]

Did you even read all this thread?

Of course I did.  It's my thread.  I didn't see anywhere any other plausible explanation of John Brown other than he was a fanatic and a terrorist.  You assert that he was simply a killer, using his fanatacism as an excuse, but if this were the case why wouldn't he have chosen an easier and more socially acceptable way of expressing it?  For instance, massacreing Indians, which was still being done by the US government at that point and was much less likely to be personally dangerous than massacreing supporters of slavery.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Is there a song about him that's something to do with his body "mouldering in his grave" or some shit or is that someone else?

American history is fail - most of it happened less than a week ago. 

[Cramulus]

I can no longer resist the impulse to post this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyAWvjLapJs

What would you do
If you were asked to give up your dreams for freedom?
What would you do
If asked to make the ultimate sacrifice?

Would you think about all them people
Who gave up everything they had?
Would you think about all them War Vets
And would you start to feel bad?

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
No, there's a hefty in' fee.
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?

What would you do
If someone told you to fight for freedom?
Would you answer the call
Or run away like a little ?
'Cause the only reason that you're here
Is 'cause folks died for you in the past
So maybe now it's your turn
To die kicking some ass

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
Now there's a hefty fuckin' fee
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?

You don't throw in your buck 'o five. Who will?
Oooh buck 'o five
Freedom costs a buck 'o five

[Adios]

I don't know if I should  or

[Doktor Howl]

Wait.

Terrorists are fighting for our freedom?

STEP OFF, MISTER MAN!
\

yes.  Terrorists as defined by the Patriot act.

So, John Brown would have been okay, if it weren't for the PATRIOT Act?   

Dok,
Didn't realize murdering children was okay before that law was passed.

I wasn't arguing against the patriot act.  I was using it's definitions. 

And John Brown was definitely fighting for our freedoms (with our defined as humanity in General, his specific focus was black people)  he was doing it in a bad way but yes, he was absolutely fighting for our freedoms.

Um, no he wasn't.

Really?  Why, in your opinion, did he kill those children?

Why, in your opinion, does murdering children make anyone free?

[Doktor Howl]

I have not seen any analysis of him that said he killed from some sort of pathological need to kill, like a serial killer.

"Nits make lice."

That's as psychopathic as anyone has to be.  To him, the children weren't even human, they were vermin...And certainly not as important as The Cause.

Protip:  When The Cause leads you toward murdering children, find another cause.

[Adios]

I have not seen any analysis of him that said he killed from some sort of pathological need to kill, like a serial killer.

"Nits make lice."

That's as psychopathic as anyone has to be.  To him, the children weren't even human, they were vermin...And certainly not as important as The Cause.

Protip:  When The Cause leads you toward murdering children, find another cause.

There it is. But I think he wants to cannonize brown regardless.

[BabylonHoruv]

I can no longer resist the impulse to post this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyAWvjLapJs

What would you do
If you were asked to give up your dreams for freedom?
What would you do
If asked to make the ultimate sacrifice?

Would you think about all them people
Who gave up everything they had?
Would you think about all them War Vets
And would you start to feel bad?

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
No, there's a hefty in' fee.
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?

What would you do
If someone told you to fight for freedom?
Would you answer the call
Or run away like a little ?
'Cause the only reason that you're here
Is 'cause folks died for you in the past
So maybe now it's your turn
To die kicking some ass

Freedom isn't free
It costs folks like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
Now there's a hefty fuckin' fee
And if you don't throw in your buck 'o five
Who will?

You don't throw in your buck 'o five. Who will?
Oooh buck 'o five
Freedom costs a buck 'o five

Whee!  Exactly the sort of thing I was satirizing.

[Doktor Howl]

Oh, now it was satire.   

[BabylonHoruv]

Oh, now it was satire.   

Well yeah.  I said that like 5 times.

Doesn't mean I don't admire some of those labelled as terrorists, but I was intentionally trying to make it look like a pro-military bit up until the last sentence.