The "evidence" of Ritual

[Adios]

Let's assume most of us have an opinion as to whether or not ghosts exist. In my experience those who have some type of encounter with whatever this is usually believe, and those who have had no experience do not. This is only a rule of reference and not a hard fact.

Before starting this thread I researched rituals of death. So many of these rituals, especially in the past, were designed to prevent the spirit of the recently deceased from remaining. Some of this was from fear, some from religious beliefs, and some from a desire to help the spirit move on.

What I have not found yet is why are there so many rituals designed to keep the spirit away? Many myths, if followed back far enough can be found to be based on a truth. Could this be the case in some of these death rituals?

Obviously I am in the believers camp here, so I will operate from this perspective, but will also look for alternatives.

We always assume when collecting evidence of ghosts, hauntings and paranormal experiences that they are visiting our existence, that we are the ones who can help them move on or whatever.  Why? Oh, I know the answer, the question was designed to provoke thought.

What if it is us who are stepping onto their territory? I know, crazy. Humor me.

I am going to start from a completely neutral position. I am not going to automatically jump to the conclusion that whatever this is was ever human. Which will prompt the question of what is it then. I don't know.

But it should be fun to try to find out.

[LMNO]

As to why rituals were designed to help the spirit move on, I refer to a quote by the great Mexican painter Freida Kahlo: "I hope the departue is joyful and I hope never to return."


More interesting is the issue of territory and of identity.  Are you suggesting that there might be a form of consciousness that is somehow claiming a piece of experiential reality as its own?

[Adios]

As to why rituals were designed to help the spirit move on, I refer to a quote by the great Mexican painter Freida Kahlo: "I hope the departue is joyful and I hope never to return."


More interesting is the issue of territory and of identity.  Are you suggesting that there might be a form of consciousness that is somehow claiming a piece of experiential reality as its own?

Suggesting? No, exploring. My entire premise on this hunt is very simple.

"I don't know, and I am not assuming."

Is it possible? What isn't?

[LMNO]

Very cool.  How would you go about starting this exploration?  If it could be literally anything, then how do you start eliminating possibilities?

[Adios]

Honestly I think my first step has to be to follow death rituals as far back as I can. Then break them down into catagories. Then dig to see what was the root cause for the ritual.

The process of either evidence or dismissal.

[Cain]

The evidence of traditional rituals dating back thousands of years alone does not constitute a proof.  For example, the Catholic Church is one of the oldest institutions on Earth, with a whole litany of rituals for every sort of occasion.  Yet it does not follow that what the Catholic Church believes is in any way factual.   Hinduism has texts and rituals going back even further, and the same applies to that religion.

That many ancient peoples had rituals related to departed spirits only indicates a belief in an afterlife was widespread in the past.  That religion seems to be a near-universal phenomenon makes this unsurprising.  Evolutionary psychologists have suggested many of the original rituals of religion developed once tribes grew too large for everyone to know each other on an individual basis, and that the rituals linked to them allowed for outsiders to be identified more readily.  Various myths and beliefs in supernatural figures and other forms of existence formed the basis of tribal legends which helped consolidate group identity and the existing political structure, and later beliefs concerning an afterlife followed logically from these stories being taken at face value.

In the case of, for example, dark age and medieval Europe, belief in ghosts and the undead was widespread because they were mentioned in the Bible, and therefore must be true.  Most stories, when examined with a critical eye, fall apart, often being the testimony of a "trustworthy gentleman" known to someone who was known to the writer, but because such things were so accepted at the time, stories of them from second-hand sources were accepted uncritically.  This logical thinking coupled with irrational premises is what led theologians down the path of debating the nature of the bodies of demons (could they, for example, be hurt or killed?  Do they require food?) and splitting hairs on the difference between the rising of the undead and the Resurrection.

[Adios]

The evidence of traditional rituals dating back thousands of years alone does not constitute a proof.  For example, the Catholic Church is one of the oldest institutions on Earth, with a whole litany of rituals for every sort of occasion.  Yet it does not follow that what the Catholic Church believes is in any way factual.   Hinduism has texts and rituals going back even further, and the same applies to that religion.

That many ancient peoples had rituals related to departed spirits only indicates a belief in an afterlife was widespread in the past.  That religion seems to be a near-universal phenomenon makes this unsurprising.  Evolutionary psychologists have suggested many of the original rituals of religion developed once tribes grew too large for everyone to know each other on an individual basis, and that the rituals linked to them allowed for outsiders to be identified more readily.  Various myths and beliefs in supernatural figures and other forms of existence formed the basis of tribal legends which helped consolidate group identity and the existing political structure, and later beliefs concerning an afterlife followed logically from these stories being taken at face value.

In the case of, for example, dark age and medieval Europe, belief in ghosts and the undead was widespread because they were mentioned in the Bible, and therefore must be true.  Most stories, when examined with a critical eye, fall apart, often being the testimony of a "trustworthy gentleman" known to someone who was known to the writer, but because such things were so accepted at the time, stories of them from second-hand sources were accepted uncritically.  This logical thinking coupled with irrational premises is what led theologians down the path of debating the nature of the bodies of demons (could they, for example, be hurt or killed?  Do they require food?) and splitting hairs on the difference between the rising of the undead and the Resurrection.

Yes. My research will by necessity predate the bible. I will have to focus on the more primitive peoples and try to avoid the pitfalls associated with them.

[LMNO]

Honestly I think my first step has to be to follow death rituals as far back as I can. Then break them down into catagories. Then dig to see what was the root cause for the ritual.

The process of either evidence or dismissal.

I like this approach.  Although, Cain makes a good point.  A large amount of speculation has been built upon a tenuous foundation.  If all possibilities are available, then the event you witnessed may have no connection to either human death or human ritual.

[Adios]

Honestly I think my first step has to be to follow death rituals as far back as I can. Then break them down into catagories. Then dig to see what was the root cause for the ritual.

The process of either evidence or dismissal.

I like this approach.  Although, Cain makes a good point.  A large amount of speculation has been built upon a tenuous foundation.  If all possibilities are available, then the event you witnessed may have no connection to either human death or human ritual.

And again, this is only a starting point, who knows where an open mind will allow it to lead?

[LMNO]

Nicely put.  I am eager to see what happens with this.

[Adios]

Nicely put.  I am eager to see what happens with this.

Me too! Feel free to jump in!

[Adios]

http://library.thinkquest.org/16665/burial.htm

Here is where I begin.

[Adios]

Scratch that link. This is now going to start in a library. The internet is too readily full of zombie bullshit.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

From the spiritual perspective, I would say that the rituals were designed to prevent the spirit coming back because they could be mischievous/malevolent, and then there would be nothing that you personally could do without a shaman/exorcist, and even then it might be a hard fight to get the spirit to move on and stop harassing the living. Call it preventative medicine. The spirit would have access to information that you do not, sees you when you're doing things that you wouldn't want mom to know about, can occasionally throw shit at you, and all that good stuff. Sure, that sort of ally might be beneficial, but you might do something to offend it, or maybe it secretly didn't like you to begin with and can torment you with impunity? Probably better to fear spirits and have no trafficking with them. Leave that to the priest class.

From a scientific perspective, I would say that a ritual that cuts the spirit off from the physical gives the mourners closure to prevent the psychological factors that go into interpreting something as a haunting. Something wierd happens, but obviously it can't be Uncle X because we banished his soul to culturally appropriate afterlife model.

I have no problem with accepting both as equally true, or based in truth.

I do find the suggestion that we're encroaching on their territory interesting. It makes me think that perhaps this could be purgatory. Or maybe a better analogy is the state penitentiary.

[Cramulus]

http://www.amazon.com/Death-Burial-Afterlife-Biblical-World/dp/1566634016
^
if you can find this at the library, it's a great read about death and burial practices, and beliefs about the afterlife in the period and region in which the old testament was written. It traces the origins of christian ideas about death to the other regional religions.

I took a class taught by the author, and it was fascinating.