BREAKING NEWS: HUNS INVADE EUROPE. VISIGOTHS SACK ROME...

[LMNO]

I'm making the point that Celticity is memetic, not genetic.

You're saying that it's a choice, like being a furry?

[Doktor Howl]

I'm making the point that Celticity is memetic, not genetic.

You're saying that it's a choice, like being a furry?

I CHOOSE TO BE SCYTHIAN!

[0]

Reptilian, and damned proud of it.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

One final note (for the time being) while I wait for my lunch to cook,

Since I'm having trouble finding a citation to support my criteria for Celticity, I'll defend my position.

Since Celt can pretty much mean anything depending on what position you take, we must take into consideration what common ties peoples that are undeniably "Celts" have in common.

They speak some sort of Celtic language (Gaulish, Erse, Brythonic, Galatian, etc.), they have Celtic culture (art, various practices which overlap with religion, methods of warfare, etc), and they have Celtic polytheism (interesting side note, "Druidism" is a Gaulish and Insular phenomenon. Galatians didn't have them, don't know about Celt-Iberians. Indicates some sort of assimilation of pre-Celtic practices in the "6 nations" area).

These three things may have local quirks but have general commonalities: Hibernian Brigantes probably never heard of Teutates or Nemetona, but Lugos would be recognizeable as Lug. Evidence has shown that Roman era Gauls viewed Apollo and Mercury as subordinates to Cernunnos. Nuada Argetlam is likely identical to Llud Llaw Eraint.

There is also little evidence of Celticism spreading much through conquest and interbreeding with indigenous populations, and most likely came about through trading and thinking, "hey, these guys are cool. Let's be cool too."

Describing it as a linguistic identity is not terribly satisfying. I speak English, but am not in anyway definable as British. Religion is also, in and of itself, not satisfying. My father has a label attached to him that ties him to Rome, but he's not in any way Italian (though, due to skin tone and hair color, he could pass if he wanted to. Accent gives it away though). Culture works on its own, but is not entirely distinct on its own, as certain amounts of cultural assimilation would take place- other barbarians not identifiable as Celts may share some cultural similarities, whether they be through adoption or coincidence. Take the three together and it makes a better definition. Nicely enough, culture and religion match up with the language family, and taken together, makes a satisfactory definition of what it means to be a Celt. Would be modern Celts don't have to throw out the definition on the grounds of being Christian, atheist, or other. The polytheism is fused with the modern culture by means of literature, folklore, and art. Bonus if you're Catholic since Irish Catholics assimilated aspects of local Hibernian variants of Celtic polytheism.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I'm making the point that Celticity is memetic, not genetic.

You're saying that it's a choice, like being a furry?

More or less. My ancestors weren't related to Gauls. Genes don't satisfy a Celtic identity.

ETA: Not sure what your background is, but if you wanted to be a Celt, you'd just have to learn Irish, drink more whiskey, carry a shillelagh, sing Wild Rover over and over again, and talk about the amazing feats of Fionn Mac Cumhail and Cu Chulainn.

[LMNO]

Couldn't I just get drunk and shout, "LET'S GO RED SOX, LET'S GO" while beating up anyone south of Hartford, CT?

[Doktor Howl]

I wonder what an anthropologist would say.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Couldn't I just get drunk and shout, "LET'S GO RED SOX, LET'S GO" while beating up anyone south of Hartford, CT?

One time, my ex and I were in Ireland. It was getting close to playoffs time and we saw an old dude wearing a Yankees hat. Ex starts mocking him for a Yankees fan. His response: "I don't even know what a Yankees is. My grandson gave this to me."

True story.

What you're planning makes you from Southie or Charlestown, though there could be some overlap there.

[Phox]

Next problem, what is Celticness? A cultural identity? An ethnicity? A linguistic category? Your criteria is still too broad. And religion still doesn't factor into any of these. Roman Polytheism was inclusive, yes. But what about Roman Christians, who actively denied Roman Polytheism, even while it was still part of what identified one as "Roman"? If you won't even attempt to define Jewishness, why would you attempt to define Celticness?

Going backwards- I'm not going to define Jewishness because the best knowledge I have about Jewishness is that I was raised Catholic and therefore prayed to a dead Jew, and they cut off their sons' foreskins. Oh, and the occasional Jewish holiday.

I'm not using Roman polytheism as a criterion for Romanness (especially since Christianity became the state religion). I am using Celtic polytheism as a criterion for Celticity because by the time they stopped worshipping Celtic gods they were defined by geographical location.

Again, Romans and Celts can't be held be the same standards because the Romans had an empire. The Celts did not. Having hegemony over a diverse group of people changes the definition of "some jack off who lives in Rome" to "citizen of the Roman Empire."

In my further googling, it seems like the commonly agreed upon basic definition of a Celt is someone who speaks a Celtic language. I agree that's too broad. It would then include someone from Vietnam who decided to take up learning Manx as a hobby.

Cultural identity helps narrow it down. Now we're talking about people in modern times include Irish, Scots, Manx, Cornish, Bretons and Welsh.

Ethnic identity, most definitely not. As I noted before, various Celtic tribes had diverse origins. I noted earlier that Gaels are Celticized Basques, meaning that you and I are ehtnically Basque, but still culturally and linguistically (at least in a historical way) distinct from them. Just as we are ethnically distinct from the original Hallstatt Celts and the later La Tene culture Gauls.

Also, how does religion not get tied up with culture? Celtic polytheism still has a presence, albeit very diluted, in modern Irish culture. I'm not Welsh so I can't speak about that, but I imagine its not different for them.

Isn't growing up an Irish Catholic wonderful? Doubly so when you're a girl.

One final note (for the time being) while I wait for my lunch to cook,

Since I'm having trouble finding a citation to support my criteria for Celticity, I'll defend my position.

Since Celt can pretty much mean anything depending on what position you take, we must take into consideration what common ties peoples that are undeniably "Celts" have in common.

They speak some sort of Celtic language (Gaulish, Erse, Brythonic, Galatian, etc.), they have Celtic culture (art, various practices which overlap with religion, methods of warfare, etc), and they have Celtic polytheism (interesting side note, "Druidism" is a Gaulish and Insular phenomenon. Galatians didn't have them, don't know about Celt-Iberians. Indicates some sort of assimilation of pre-Celtic practices in the "6 nations" area).

These three things may have local quirks but have general commonalities: Hibernian Brigantes probably never heard of Teutates or Nemetona, but Lugos would be recognizeable as Lug. Evidence has shown that Roman era Gauls viewed Apollo and Mercury as subordinates to Cernunnos. Nuada Argetlam is likely identical to Llud Llaw Eraint.

There is also little evidence of Celticism spreading much through conquest and interbreeding with indigenous populations, and most likely came about through trading and thinking, "hey, these guys are cool. Let's be cool too."

Describing it as a linguistic identity is not terribly satisfying. I speak English, but am not in anyway definable as British. Religion is also, in and of itself, not satisfying. My father has a label attached to him that ties him to Rome, but he's not in any way Italian (though, due to skin tone and hair color, he could pass if he wanted to. Accent gives it away though). Culture works on its own, but is not entirely distinct on its own, as certain amounts of cultural assimilation would take place- other barbarians not identifiable as Celts may share some cultural similarities, whether they be through adoption or coincidence. Take the three together and it makes a better definition. Nicely enough, culture and religion match up with the language family, and taken together, makes a satisfactory definition of what it means to be a Celt. Would be modern Celts don't have to throw out the definition on the grounds of being Christian, atheist, or other. The polytheism is fused with the modern culture by means of literature, folklore, and art. Bonus if you're Catholic since Irish Catholics assimilated aspects of local Hibernian variants of Celtic polytheism.

Alright, this I can agree with.

[Doktor Howl]

Let me get this straight:  Blight, your position is that there is no Celt ethnic grouping?

[LMNO]

I think he believes it's a lifestyle.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Let me get this straight:  Blight, your position is that there is no Celt ethnic grouping?

There are distinct ethnic groups (ethnic in a genetic sense) that have in the past or currently identify with Celtic identity. But Celts have never been ethnically unified. Neither have they been politically unified.

In other words, there is no distinct Celtic ethnicity, but there are distinct ethnicities that are or were Celtic.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I think he believes it's a lifestyle.

Oversimplifying, but not inaccurate.

[Doktor Howl]

Let me get this straight:  Blight, your position is that there is no Celt ethnic grouping?

There are distinct ethnic groups (ethnic in a genetic sense) that have in the past or currently identify with Celtic identity. But Celts have never been ethnically unified. Neither have they been politically unified.

In other words, there is no distinct Celtic ethnicity, but there are distinct ethnicities that are or were Celtic.

We're not talking politics, here.

Now, anthropologists will tell you that Celtic cultures were distinct, sharing language, art, religion, social conventions, and (later) writing.

It's also a fact that certain physical traits are common among Celts.

So I'm kind of wondering what you define "ethnicity" as.

[Doktor Howl]

I think he believes it's a lifestyle.

Oversimplifying, but not inaccurate.

I am going to take a handful of pills before I respond to this.