I think I'm going to love Oakland

[Triple Zero]

If the Machine is a mindless metaconspiracy that sets conditions which cause people to behave in a certain way, then why are riots and civil unrest any less "programmed" than people brainlessly going to work 40 hours a work doing shit that doesn't really need to be done?

That's the thing, it's not.

Riots happen, just as much as, say, the ring-tone-and-latest-celeb-iPhone-wallpaper industry happens (just to name one thing I'm pretty sure that everybody can agree upon is a waste of humanity)--and so, the Machine happens.

I don't see the problem,

cause it makes neither of them right.
but it also doesn't make it right to burn down, kill or teargas any of them.

no really.

HEY YOU STOP GIGGLING

yes I am AWARE how funny it would be to teargas the ring-tone industry but that doesn't make it right ...



but seriously, read Roger's latest rant on this (you probably already did). cause he covers it pretty nicely.

Why, when the action crosses the (usually subjective) line from "complacence" into "negative behavior" territory, is it suddenly 100% personal responsibility?

I think it's something to do with:

Do What Thou Wilt Shalt Be The Whole Of The Law But Remember Nobody Likes An Asshole

Individually the victims of a riot are not responsible for the consequences of a riot. The loss of property (and life) suffered at the hands of a rampaging mob is devastating to those who suffer it.

Yes, agreed.

Individually they are innocent, but the society as a whole is not innocent.

Difficult.

Innocence and lack thereof presumes a certain system of ethics. Generally accepted ideas of right and wrong are the ones that only apply to individual humans. This is why vegetarians and tree-huggers have such a difficult time getting their beliefs about not hurting animals or plants to become universally accepted. Similarly, while it is possible to view society as a meta-organism, which is IMO an often very useful viewpoint, it is not straightforward at all to carry ethical judgement and values from individual humans to society-as-a-meta-organism.

Just as with animals, it is very important to not anthropomorphise the meta-organism, Machine, or society too much.

When you find your bread with green spots, is the mould "guilty" or "innocent"? Something is to be said for either of these options. Why is that? Because human ethical values don't work on non-human things.

Sorry I'm straying quite a bit off-topic here, but IMO these distinctions are quite important once we start saying that things such as a "mob" or "society" are or are not innocent as a whole. The fact that you need to apply the qualifier "as a whole" to this statement also provides a hint that it just doesn't quite fit.

One more example. Maybe I can show how un-human a meta-organism is, and also that it is not necessarily "smarter" or in every way "higher" than us humans. If you go to Google maps, find a medium-big city, preferably one that's not glued/stuck to another city or conglomerate but lies in a relatively sparsely populated area. That's to get a cleaner view. Now switch to satellite modus, zoom out a little bit and squint your eyes. You may disagree with me, but in my opinion, a lone city really looks a lot like that typical first speck of mould growing on bread, or a moist wall, or whatever. Same sort of concentrated irregular roundish shape, little tendrils/roads growing out of it, which is where the city/mould can expand to, or perhaps even form a new centre. Literally paving the roads hehe

Anyway, that illustrates what I always suspected, while the Machine may be viewed as an organism, it is by no means smarter than an individual human being. Just bigger and stronger. For some reason I always imagined it as either amoeba-like, or like a small scared aggressive wild animal. But recently I came to the conclusion it's not animal, it moves too slow, and grows too different. I think I'm getting a lot closer by imagining an aggressive, slightly intelligent mould.

The destruction caused by a riot is a symptom of whatever disease the riot itself is a symptom of.

Yes.

And, since society is not a conscious entity by itself but depends on conscious minds within it to survive and flourish, those conscious minds have a responsibility to see to it that their society is less likely to produce riots and civil unrest.

Skipping a step, but okay.

So, while the individual is innocent and should not be targeted by a riot, the individual also had the responsibility to help alleviate whatever social ills led to the riot in the first place. It isn't a matter of saying "well you did nothing to prevent it, therefore it's your fault;" it's more like saying "if you had all done something sooner, this wouldn't have happened."

Okay, because at first you said, or seemed to imply the former.

But then, if you actually meant to say "if people would had done something <to prevent police from misbehaving>, there wouldn't have been any riots", then I say you're absolutely right. Except it's of course also stating the obvious. In fact, it's so obvious that I can imagine that you'd prefer not to state it at all. Instead state something much more interesting and edgier, yet also infinitely more wrong. ...

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Net, when you get to Oakland you'll have to let me know whether the Your Black Muslim Bakery in Eastmont Mall is still there. That place had awesome sandwiches, and its own militia. I'd walk over to the Food4Less a couple times a week for groceries, and I always had to go into the mall for a fish sandwich. That place rocked.

I will make a point of visiting Eastmont Mall for these possibly still existing sandwich makers of awesomeness.

Sweet! Also, check to see if the Chick-N-Coop is still around. I used to get a huge roast turkey leg and a packet of mayo from them for $1. They fucking ROCK. There were 3...  one in Daly City and two in SF.

[the last yatto]

http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2010/06/police_taser_man_having_sex_on.php

[Requia ☣]

Spraying him with a hose didn't work?

[Whatever]

OK so let's make sure I understand.

The neighbors call to complain about loud music but the lawn fucking was not a problem?

The man advanced on the cop? So walking towards a cop on your own lawn (albeit nekkid ok) is a crime?

I'm wondering if they can come back with tresspassing or need for a warrant, illegal search and tasering or some such.

[Freeky]

OK so let's make sure I understand.

The neighbors call to complain about loud music but the lawn fucking was not a problem?

The man advanced on the cop? So walking towards a cop on your own lawn (albeit nekkid ok) is a crime?

I'm wondering if they can come back with tresspassing or need for a warrant, illegal search and tasering or some such.

The best he can hope for is police brutality, since being naked in public is public indecency and illegal, even if it's your own front lawn.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

OK so let's make sure I understand.

The neighbors call to complain about loud music but the lawn fucking was not a problem?

The man advanced on the cop? So walking towards a cop on your own lawn (albeit nekkid ok) is a crime?

I'm wondering if they can come back with tresspassing or need for a warrant, illegal search and tasering or some such.

The best he can hope for is police brutality, since being naked in public is public indecency and illegal, even if it's your own front lawn.

Not in Oregon. I don't know whether it is in Washington.

[Triple Zero]

A few people in the comments to that article doubt whether the incident actually happened, btw. Since apparently there should be some public record. Another comment claims to know the person and that the assault charge was dropped.