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The story of money

Started by namu, August 18, 2004, 04:35:08 PM

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namu

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_99/hannigan092099.html

This is a fantastic read. Simple enough for even children (though not too young) to understand, and thought-provoking.
Namu the Maxwell Angel
--
United we stand, divided we run free at last !

Slarti

i can say that without a doubt, that is on of the top 23 most disturbing things i have ever read or will ever read. ever.

Irreverend Hugh, KSC

Damn straight that's how THEY did/do it.
"Time for the tin-foil hats, girls and boys!"

namu

How do you make big money ? Simple, you print it. It costs $23 (I'm NOT making this up) to print 10,000 bank notes that value a million dollars in face value.

How do you make MORE big money ? Simple too, you print it, then lend it with interest like the Federal Reserve does. $23 investment turn into $1,000,000 + yearly 2% interest investment. Lather, rinse, repeat until the world is yours - that is, when all countries in the world have an interest debt higher than their internal wealth combined.


Who would have thought that taxes were little more than an indirect way for Fabian to force people (under threat of jail time) to pay the interest ?
Namu the Maxwell Angel
--
United we stand, divided we run free at last !

Irreverend Hugh, KSC

Quote from: namuHow do you make big money ? Simple, you print it. It costs $23 (I'm NOT making this up) to print 10,000 bank notes that value a million dollars in face value.

How do you make MORE big money ? Simple too, you print it, then lend it with interest like the Federal Reserve does. $23 investment turn into $1,000,000 + yearly 2% interest investment. Lather, rinse, repeat until the world is yours - that is, when all countries in the world have an interest debt higher than their internal wealth combined.


Who would have thought that taxes were little more than an indirect way for Fabian to force people (under threat of jail time) to pay the interest ?

Shh! not too loudly! Otherwise THEY will know that we know that THEY know we know.
"Time for the tin-foil hats, girls and boys!"

namu

Quote from: St. Hugh, KSCShh! not too loudly! Otherwise THEY will know that we know that THEY know we know.
Damn you !

Until now the just knew that we know, but thanks to you they know that we know that they know that we know !
Namu the Maxwell Angel
--
United we stand, divided we run free at last !

LMNO

Something doesn't seem quite right with the story, but as a non-student of economics, I can't put my finger on it....

Something about the concept is true in a closed system, but I can't help but feel that additional wealth CAN be created (and that's hard, real wealth).

Like, if there were 23 cows one year, each cow being worth 23 dollars, and then there were 28 more cows the next year, that's 5 more cows that weren't there before = more wealth.

Or, when a new product is invented: cars, computers, etc.  New things, more wealth.

Where am I going wrong?  Why isn't this a (slightly) open system?

namu

You don't understand. Creating wealth does not create money, except if you're counterfeiting bank notes and even then you can't realistically profit from it (and it does not heal the system, because that excess money ends up being destroyed by authorities). Only Officially Appointed Money Makers can, thus you depend on them for valuing and profiting from your work (a.k.a creation of wealth).

They're asking for an interest on it, that interest INFECTS your possessions, and it's only a matter of time before, on a global scale, they own everything.

You own your house ? Just wait until your country's public debt equals the country's total internal wealth, which includes your house. Then you don't own anything anymore.

And it keeps getting worse afterwards.

[Edit] Lemme explain:
Your 28 cows are worth 28/23 times the amount of money. But that money does not EXIST. There are no bank notes that got printed out of thin air and down in your pocket. Thus the "money value" of your cows decrease to adjust to existing quantity of money. You are not richer, but the money-maker is (he buys the excess cows on the interest he gets paid. He does not lose money by doing this, but your possessions lose value).

[Edit2] Creation of wealth only delays the day "Fabian" will own everything (= the day all countries have debts equal to internal wealth). It's still a long time in the future, but if the system is not brought down, it'll eventually happen. With current interest rates of 1-2%, it only takes ~70 years to transfer half of everything's ownership to the system designer. Add another 70 years, and we're up to 75% of everything. 4 centuries, and the 1% interest has eaten over 99% of the wealth. Etc... Creating wealth only inflates the remaining total V.S. the interest due.
Namu the Maxwell Angel
--
United we stand, divided we run free at last !

LMNO

Ok, I guess I understand that, but when I look at the whole thing, I see that, apart from the bartering process, there is no viable system where everyone profits.  If there is a fixed amount of dollars, anyone gaining "wealth" is making someone else "poor".  I know Illuminatus! posited a capitalistic money system, where hempnotes, flaxnotes, etc competed against the federal dollar, but i don't see how that improves the situation (ie, it's still a closed system, and a win-lose game).

Wilson also talks about "wealth" vs "illth", but i don't have th book around here to refresh my memory.

More importantly, apart from scaring and outraging us, what's the point of the story?  It offers no solutions, other than abandoning the money game, which will never happen.  So are there any real-world, viable solutions, or are we doomed?


I'm gonna sing the doom song now!  



"DoomDoomDoomDoomDoomDoomieDoomieDoomDoom"

Slarti

*cough* back to the barter system *cough*

LMNO

Quote from: Slartibartfast*cough* back to the barter system *cough*

Oh, come on now!  You may say I've been brainwashed by the system; but on the contrary, I have, in my little punk cabals of the past, tried to implement the barter system, and as it turns out, Wilson was right: once you get beyond 5 levels of structure, it breaks down (I forget where he said that, maybe it was actually about conspiricies, whatever, the Law of Five still holds).

If we're gonna get all upset & pissy about this, we have to think of solutions that may actually fuckin work.  If you don't do that, you may as well grab the KY and a few tissues, 'cuz all yr doing is wanking off.

Problems at hand:
1. Usury demands money that does not exist.
2. A closed system of money either demands haves & have nots, or demands equality with no growth.
3. A representational system (i.e. dollars represent the "real wealth" of useful things) does not acknowledge advances that bring more "real wealth" into the world.

As far as I see it now, the last two points are related, and as far as the global mentality goes, might be the easiest aspects to change ("easy" being relative, or course).

gnimbley

The problem with the barter system is that after a certain point you spend all your time bartering.

Schweinepriester G.

Yes that problem that eventually banks (or their functional equivalent) would own everything after a few hundred years even assuming the most modest interest rates is old.
I'd say a few thousend years old.
And the "solution" to the problem is just as old. It takes the form of a reset button that gets pressed now and then and puff wads of money are suddenly only fancy toilet paper and the wealth they represented is no longer there. At the same time actual property gets redistributed to some extent as well.
Mostly this reset takes the form of wars.
Afterwards we get new fancy toilet paper disguised as money which will be good for another few hundred years and people go back to business as usual
Because 'the relevant members of science, industry and government' will know far better how to handle that stuff.

I'd say one could even build a fairly congruent cyclic theory of history that defines that accumulation of wealth via interest as a force that after a certain level of imbalance is reached causes wars, revolutions and the like to happen to violently rectify this situation and start another cycle. :?

Alas money is just a shared mass halucination anyway.  :wink:
"...it would needlessly exclude IMPS implementations that
  may utilize sub-atomic monkeys and/or multiple universes;"
RFC 2795, section 4 (Infinite-TAG)

Slarti

well what's a solution then?

LMNO

I think the implication is that Bush is helping world economy by blowing the shit out of other countries.