Anti-environmentalism.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

This is something about "environmentalism" and the "sustainability movement" that really bothers me. People use certain easy outs as a way to pretend they're not vast resource-sucking black holes of destruction. Buying organic convenience foods in recycled packages. Driving Priuses. One aging environmentalist hippie we met with a couple weeks ago talks about your "environmental handprint" as opposed to your "environmental footprint"... the idea that people should measure the good things they're doing for the environment instead of focusing on the bad. It wasn't my meeting, I was just along for the ride, so I refrained from saying "THIS IS DELUSIONAL BULLSHIT!"

There are things we CAN do to slightly reduce our individual footprints. Buying locally in bulk, avoiding prepackaged foods, avoiding driving, avoiding non-durable consumer goods, minimizing energy use, paying extra for wind power... All of these things can have a (fairly trivial) reduction in our overall impact. They are still worth doing, but the real problem is that industrial society is revoltingly consumptive, our entire economy is BASED on consumption, and we are so horrified at the idea that we  might have to pay a dollar more for something that we would rather turn our heads away from the environmental damage we're doing than actually examine it and take measures to prevent it. We CAN'T prevent it without our economy collapsing.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

and you can actually eat fish out of Lake Eire now.

I wouldn't.  Not anymore.  Things changed in 2003/2004.  They're busy dumping any old shit back in Erie.

Great.

Nixon fixed shit.

Bush decided to fix it betterer.

Nixon was the last great President.

[Juana]

Yep, even if he was a spoiled brat. All down hill from there. Regan destroyed the Republicans, the best thing Bush41 did (iirc) was puke on someone's lap...

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Yep, even if he was a spoiled brat. All down hill from there. Regan destroyed the Republicans, the best thing Bush41 did (iirc) was puke on someone's lap...

"Spoiled brat"? Do you know anything about him at all? He was a great progressive with impressive resolve and a remarkable willingness to throw his political career under a bus in order to do what he believed was right for the American people. He was a good President at a very bad time for the country, and was backed into an inescapable corner with the formation of the Federal Reserve, which he absolutely did not want, and I think it took a huge toll on his mental health.

[Kai]

This is something about "environmentalism" and the "sustainability movement" that really bothers me. People use certain easy outs as a way to pretend they're not vast resource-sucking black holes of destruction. Buying organic convenience foods in recycled packages. Driving Priuses. One aging environmentalist hippie we met with a couple weeks ago talks about your "environmental handprint" as opposed to your "environmental footprint"... the idea that people should measure the good things they're doing for the environment instead of focusing on the bad. It wasn't my meeting, I was just along for the ride, so I refrained from saying "THIS IS DELUSIONAL BULLSHIT!"

There are things we CAN do to slightly reduce our individual footprints. Buying locally in bulk, avoiding prepackaged foods, avoiding driving, avoiding non-durable consumer goods, minimizing energy use, paying extra for wind power... All of these things can have a (fairly trivial) reduction in our overall impact. They are still worth doing, but the real problem is that industrial society is revoltingly consumptive, our entire economy is BASED on consumption, and we are so horrified at the idea that we  might have to pay a dollar more for something that we would rather turn our heads away from the environmental damage we're doing than actually examine it and take measures to prevent it. We CAN'T prevent it without our economy collapsing.

And I want to make it clear, I'm NOT saying DON'T do the trivial things. If society was done right, we'd be doing the trivial things. We'd also be doing a hell of a lot of different shit, but we would still retain those parts that are trivial and token to our current crisis but just part of ordinary life in better times.

[Richter]

Right on man.  People who would bitch about their "Carbon footprint" were in the same book as various flavors of "born again" in my consideration.  (Thankfully I haven't heard that BS, including the pedlding of "carbon offsets" in about a year.  Hope it dried up and blew away.)

"Environmentalism" turned into another industry that makes money of of making people feel guilty. 

[Cain]

"Environmentalism" as it currently stands is nothing more than a method for the upper middle classes to relieve their guilt about their consumption and lifestyles through token gestures of "being green" and act superior to lower socio-economic groups - who frequently cannot afford the lifestyle many self-proclaimed environmentalists have (eating organic food, gas-powered cars, attempting to be carbon neutral etc) yet, simply, by not having as much disposable income, probably do less damage to the environment in the long run.  It's not like children living in the slums in Mombasa are driving the demand for Congo cobalt resources used in most hi-tech pieces of equipment ,after all (not only causing environmental damage via horrendous mining practices, but also helping to fund the world's longest ongoing war, which causes more...you guessed it).  Its the idiots posting on Facebook about how we have to be "environmentally conscious" in one status update, and bragging about their iPhone in the next.

[The Johnny]

Its also very narcissistic to think that if i plant a tree and recycle, im gonna turn the tide in ecology's favor, while toxic waste from a single chemicals plant makes in an hour.

You cant make change at the individual scale, change has to be institutionalized.

[Juana]

Yep, even if he was a spoiled brat. All down hill from there. Regan destroyed the Republicans, the best thing Bush41 did (iirc) was puke on someone's lap...

"Spoiled brat"? Do you know anything about him at all? He was a great progressive with impressive resolve and a remarkable willingness to throw his political career under a bus in order to do what he believed was right for the American people. He was a good President at a very bad time for the country, and was backed into an inescapable corner with the formation of the Federal Reserve, which he absolutely did not want, and I think it took a huge toll on his mental health.

I was referring to his personality. I know what he did and I generally respect him for it, but he was bratty and a bit of a slimy bastard.

Its also very narcissistic to think that if i plant a tree and recycle, im gonna turn the tide in ecology's favor, while toxic waste from a single chemicals plant makes in an hour.

You cant make change at the individual scale, change has to be institutionalized.

This is where I kiiiiind of disagree. Yes, the environmental movement is essentially slacktivism, but little things do add up and buying organic, using less plastic and recycling what you do use are useful things. It just shouldn't be all you do, imo.

[Kai]

Yep, even if he was a spoiled brat. All down hill from there. Regan destroyed the Republicans, the best thing Bush41 did (iirc) was puke on someone's lap...

"Spoiled brat"? Do you know anything about him at all? He was a great progressive with impressive resolve and a remarkable willingness to throw his political career under a bus in order to do what he believed was right for the American people. He was a good President at a very bad time for the country, and was backed into an inescapable corner with the formation of the Federal Reserve, which he absolutely did not want, and I think it took a huge toll on his mental health.

I was referring to his personality. I know what he did and I generally respect him for it, but he was bratty and a bit of a slimy bastard.

Its also very narcissistic to think that if i plant a tree and recycle, im gonna turn the tide in ecology's favor, while toxic waste from a single chemicals plant makes in an hour.

You cant make change at the individual scale, change has to be institutionalized.

This is where I kiiiiind of disagree. Yes, the environmental movement is essentially slacktivism, but little things do add up and buying organic, using less plastic and recycling what you do use are useful things. It just shouldn't be all you do, imo.

Useful =/= the efficient way to stability. Or even A way.

[Juana]

I neglected to read a prior post you made, which more or less covered my thoughts.  My bad. So feel free to ignore that part of the post...

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Yep, even if he was a spoiled brat. All down hill from there. Regan destroyed the Republicans, the best thing Bush41 did (iirc) was puke on someone's lap...

"Spoiled brat"? Do you know anything about him at all? He was a great progressive with impressive resolve and a remarkable willingness to throw his political career under a bus in order to do what he believed was right for the American people. He was a good President at a very bad time for the country, and was backed into an inescapable corner with the formation of the Federal Reserve, which he absolutely did not want, and I think it took a huge toll on his mental health.

I was referring to his personality. I know what he did and I generally respect him for it, but he was bratty and a bit of a slimy bastard.

I didn't know you knew him personally. I'm impressed. Most of his contemporaries who knew him describe him as intense but shy, painfully insecure, and coping with public life through a rigidly-constructed persona. It sounds like you knew him well enough to see a different side of him, though, so I'll take your word for it.

[Juana]

Yep, even if he was a spoiled brat. All down hill from there. Regan destroyed the Republicans, the best thing Bush41 did (iirc) was puke on someone's lap...

"Spoiled brat"? Do you know anything about him at all? He was a great progressive with impressive resolve and a remarkable willingness to throw his political career under a bus in order to do what he believed was right for the American people. He was a good President at a very bad time for the country, and was backed into an inescapable corner with the formation of the Federal Reserve, which he absolutely did not want, and I think it took a huge toll on his mental health.

I was referring to his personality. I know what he did and I generally respect him for it, but he was bratty and a bit of a slimy bastard.

I didn't know you knew him personally. I'm impressed. Most of his contemporaries who knew him describe him as intense but shy, painfully insecure, and coping with public life through a rigidly-constructed persona. It sounds like you knew him well enough to see a different side of him, though, so I'll take your word for it.

Oh for Pete's sake. Let me rephrase it then: if you listen to some of conversations he had on tape, he comes off as very bratty. Watch The Most Dangerous Man in America, for example. He seemed to be personally offended by Daniel Ellsberg's leaking of the Pentagon papers.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I guess if "Increasingly mentally ill" = "bratty".

[Juana]

I was unaware of that. The more you know, I suppose.