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Don't get me wrong, I greatly appreciate the fact that you're at least putting effort into sincerely arguing your points. It's an argument I've enjoyed having. It's just that your points are wrong and your reasons for thinking they're right are stupid.

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Proving Charles Tilly right, part 29,451 in a neverending series

Started by Cain, February 02, 2012, 08:31:00 PM

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Cain

"If protection rackets represent organised crime at its smoothest, then war risking and state making - quintessential protection rackets with the advantage of legitimacy - qualify as our largest examples of organized crime."
- Charles Tilly, War Making and the State as Organized Crime.

"You might have 100 people in your gang - we have 32,000 people in our gang. It's called the Metropolitan Police."
-  Chief Inspector Ian Kibblewhite, Enfield Borough

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23645844-entire-crime-squad-is-investigated-for-corruption.do

QuoteAN entire police crime squad in a London borough is being investigated for corruption.

Nine police officers have been suspended and two others placed on restricted duties after an internal inquiry was conducted.

All the officers are based on the Enfield borough crime squad which deals with local robberies and burglaries and the inquiry centres on the "mishandling of property" believed to be stolen electronic goods including televisions.

All those suspended are detective constables while those placed on restrictive duties are understood to be more senior officers. None of the officers has been arrested.

Dozens of officers from the elite anti-corruption squad - dubbed the Ghost Squad - swooped on the officers at Edmonton police station yesterday. Desks and lockers were searched as the station was turned into a crime scene.

The homes of the suspended officers were also searched.

The raid was the culmination of what was believed to be a year-long operation by the Met's Directorate of Professional Standards. Hidden cameras are thought to have been installed at the police station to try to catch suspect officers taking items from the property stores which, sources said, did not include drugs or weapons.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/02/metropolitan-police-smashed-up-car

QuoteA secret police disciplinary hearing has ruled that six Metropolitan police officers who smashed up a suspect's car used excessive force but can keep their jobs.

Video footage shows the detective sergeant and five constables leaping from an unmarked car shouting "attack, attack", before smashing baseball bats and a pickaxe handle into the side windows and windscreen of a Mini stopped in traffic.

The plainclothes officers – all members of the Enfield crime squad in north London – then pull out the driver, Jonathan Billinghurst, and push him to the floor, where he is arrested.

At least one of the officers is wearing a non-police-issue jacket with the words "police detective, crime squad" on the back – similar to those worn by US police.

On Wednesday Scotland Yard released the findings of the six officers' disciplinary hearing, which took place over the past seven days behind closed doors.

It followed a 16-month anti-corruption inquiry by the Met's directorate of professional standards, into a whistleblower's claims that detectives had assaulted and abused suspects, used excessive force to stop a stolen car, and taken property for their own use in the police station, including a Mercedes, other cars, flat screen televisions and other electrical goods.

The investigation – supervised by the Independent Police Complaints Commission – involved 43 separate inquiries and targeted all 15 officers in the Enfield crime squad. An allegation that two suspects were "waterboarded" during their arrest was not upheld.

The Good Reverend Roger

Oddly enough, I just finished reading the entire Sam Vimes series, and Nobby Nobbs is looking like a saint compared to this shit.  Hell, Cpl Quirke is looking pretty fucking good.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Cain

Yeah. Quirke was a nasty shit, but even he wasn't stupid enough for some of the things the Met is up to.

For instance, the Met is under increased scrutiny due to the riots, the News of the World, general corruption etc...so what do they do?  They escalate stop-and-searches against blacks.  In 2010, you were 10 times more likely to be stopped if you were black, now, it's thirty times. 

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Cain on February 02, 2012, 09:16:51 PM
Yeah. Quirke was a nasty shit, but even he wasn't stupid enough for some of the things the Met is up to.

For instance, the Met is under increased scrutiny due to the riots, the News of the World, general corruption etc...so what do they do?  They escalate stop-and-searches against blacks.  In 2010, you were 10 times more likely to be stopped if you were black, now, it's thirty times.

On top of that, the MOMENT the riots ended, they tear-gassed that kid in Chelsea to DEATH, after HE called the police about someone else causing a problem.

Kid was Black, of course.

Funny thing is, until VERY recently, Americans considered English police to be the best in the world...But the reality has finally burned through the image.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Cain

I still know some local coppers (and ex-coppers) I would trust.  They're exactly what you want in a police officer, present when needed, unseen the rest of the time, even-handed, usually a part of the community they are serving in as an officer and so aware of its concerns and personalities. 

Even some of the local London forces are fairly decent.

But not any metropolitan police force.  I'd rather walk limp home bleeding than accept help from the Met, or the Manchester or Liverpool police.

The saddest part is, I suspect these coppers aren't even aware of the reputation which they have destroyed.

Q. G. Pennyworth

Well, our cops are more likely to shoot us than yours, so you can't blame us for having a little bit of a crush on them.

Cainad (dec.)

Quote from: Queen_Gogira on February 02, 2012, 11:29:20 PM
Well, our cops are more likely to shoot us than yours, so you can't blame us for having a little bit of a crush on them.

That just forces them to get creative.

Disco Pickle

(maybe) unrelated but the "Powers that Be" in Veracruz, Mx dumped the entire police force in Nov. of last year after 35 bodies were dumped on the busiest intersections of the city. 

Didn't see Nyx post anything about this and was otherwise occupied at the time but meant to at some point address it.

I appreciate that, at an executive level, an entire force can be dumped to rid the ship of rats and start over.  I'm unfamiliar with it happening anywhere else. 

I think it has to be healthy though.  In a well regulated and observed executive it should be unnecessary but in this instance and possibly others I can see a cleanse being very beneficial to the populous.   Not popular, especially among those with the most to lose, (protection, etc.) but still, very useful.

"Events in the past may be roughly divided into those which probably never happened and those which do not matter." --William Ralph Inge

"sometimes someone confesses a sin in order to take credit for it." -- John Von Neumann

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Cain on February 02, 2012, 09:52:35 PM
I still know some local coppers (and ex-coppers) I would trust.  They're exactly what you want in a police officer, present when needed, unseen the rest of the time, even-handed, usually a part of the community they are serving in as an officer and so aware of its concerns and personalities. 

Even some of the local London forces are fairly decent.

But not any metropolitan police force.  I'd rather walk limp home bleeding than accept help from the Met, or the Manchester or Liverpool police.

The saddest part is, I suspect these coppers aren't even aware of the reputation which they have destroyed.

See, I never had any problem in Liverpool.  Of course, I'm not a local, and for some weird reason English police can't actually SEE Americans.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Cain

Quote from: Queen_Gogira on February 02, 2012, 11:29:20 PM
Well, our cops are more likely to shoot us than yours, so you can't blame us for having a little bit of a crush on them.

SO19 are extremely creative in the "shooting people in the head for no good reason then planting evidence to justify it" department.  Especially when it comes to foreigners.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 03, 2012, 03:00:20 AM
See, I never had any problem in Liverpool.  Of course, I'm not a local, and for some weird reason English police can't actually SEE Americans.

It would depend when you were there, as well as where you were in Liverpool.  Liverpool's police force is notoriously corrupt, by British standards, but as a rule police brutality is not an issue unless you live around Edge Hill or Toxteth...where "batter with sticks first, then blame the death on "sudden in-custody death syndrome"*" tends to be the general attitude.

*A real reason given for a number of deaths in police custody, incidentally, despite (rightly) not being recognized at all as a medical condition of any kind.