Italy to ban plastic bags

[Phox]

Just a retarded "green" fad, like banning smoking in bars, ffs.

Uh, no, banning smoking isn't about being green it is about addressing a public health issue. 

Dont you think its a bit tripe compared to other more important things, like idk, reducing carbon emissions with a "no-driving" day calendar?

I mean, all in relation to health.

Not really. I mean, for one, a mandatory "no driving" day would really fuck over someone like me if it fell on any day except Sunday. Unless that's not what you mean, but in that case you'll have to clarify.

[Adios]

Considering the impact of second hand smoke on health, no, I don't think it's "a bit tripe".  In fact, I think the impact of constant exposure to second hand smoke is going to have more acute impacts on a person's health compared to the impact of carbon emissions. 

But of course, it would be completely asinine to suggest we can't address both. 

As a smoker I just stopped eating out or drinking in bars when no smoking laws passed. If I am to be treated as a second class citizen then they will get none of my disposable income. Not that I have any these days.

[The Johnny]

Considering the impact of second hand smoke on health, no, I don't think it's "a bit tripe".  In fact, I think the impact of constant exposure to second hand smoke is going to have more acute impacts on a person's health compared to the impact of carbon emissions. 

But of course, it would be completely asinine to suggest we can't address both. 

Can you refer me to a study or literature?

[The Johnny]

Just a retarded "green" fad, like banning smoking in bars, ffs.

Uh, no, banning smoking isn't about being green it is about addressing a public health issue. 

Dont you think its a bit tripe compared to other more important things, like idk, reducing carbon emissions with a "no-driving" day calendar?

I mean, all in relation to health.

Not really. I mean, for one, a mandatory "no driving" day would really fuck over someone like me if it fell on any day except Sunday. Unless that's not what you mean, but in that case you'll have to clarify.

Yeah that, where 10% of cars arent allowed to drive once a week.

[Phox]

Just a retarded "green" fad, like banning smoking in bars, ffs.

Uh, no, banning smoking isn't about being green it is about addressing a public health issue. 

Dont you think its a bit tripe compared to other more important things, like idk, reducing carbon emissions with a "no-driving" day calendar?

I mean, all in relation to health.

Not really. I mean, for one, a mandatory "no driving" day would really fuck over someone like me if it fell on any day except Sunday. Unless that's not what you mean, but in that case you'll have to clarify.

Yeah that, where 10% of cars arent allowed to drive once a week.

Yeah, I'd be pretty screwed. I'm a good 25 miles from where I work/go to school, with no public transportation and no way to carpool. And there are shit ton of people like that here. Drawback of living in rural Middle America.

[Fujikoma]

Just a retarded "green" fad, like banning smoking in bars, ffs.

Uh, no, banning smoking isn't about being green it is about addressing a public health issue. 

Dont you think its a bit tripe compared to other more important things, like idk, reducing carbon emissions with a "no-driving" day calendar?

I mean, all in relation to health.

Not really. I mean, for one, a mandatory "no driving" day would really fuck over someone like me if it fell on any day except Sunday. Unless that's not what you mean, but in that case you'll have to clarify.

Yeah that, where 10% of cars arent allowed to drive once a week.

Yeah, I'd be pretty screwed. I'm a good 25 miles from where I work/go to school, with no public transportation and no way to carpool. And there are shit ton of people like that here. Drawback of living in rural Middle America.

Just about everywhere I've lived I've had a similar problem, but usually it's anywhere from 5-30 miles from where I work. 5 I'll usually walk, unless the weather is bad, but that wouldn't work for everyone.

[AFK]

Considering the impact of second hand smoke on health, no, I don't think it's "a bit tripe".  In fact, I think the impact of constant exposure to second hand smoke is going to have more acute impacts on a person's health compared to the impact of carbon emissions. 

But of course, it would be completely asinine to suggest we can't address both. 

Can you refer me to a study or literature?

http://www.jointogether.org/news/research/summaries/2010/second-hand-smoke-damages.html

http://www.jointogether.org/news/research/summaries/2010/passive-smoking-kills.html

http://www.jointogether.org/news/research/summaries/2002/researchers-secondhand-smoke.html

[Fujikoma]

If people don't want to be exposed to second hand smoke, I can understand. I go out of my way to accommodate others, I don't even bother to ask first, I find a nice, isolate spot outside to smoke, and take the wind direction into account. If they're smokers too, fuck it, already inhaling the stuff anyway, that doesn't bother me... But I will not stand for anyone telling me I cannot smoke, or advocating an all-out ban on smoking.

Hearing loss... The most talented musicians I know smoke. Is it possible hearing damage is caused by either going to live shows, or playing at live shows? Perhaps the entertainment preferences of smokers are different, and hearing loss is unrelated to smoking. Ever go to a bar? A good proportion of the people who go to bars are smokers. When the bars no longer allow smoking, you start to see a huge drop in business. Is it possible that the entertainment preferences of some non-smokers involves sitting in a sound-proof cave, eating tofu and broccoli, and sipping tea? A number of them are already averse to damaging themselves by smoking, so I don't think it's such a great leap to think that their other habits, such as music listening and the like, may be toned down a bit. Me, I like greasy burgers and bloody steaks. I like scotch, straight, and I like to smoke my brains out while listening to deafening roars of sound.

When I was young, I remember the sickly greenish yellow furniture in my parents house. It was once white... All my relatives smoked, shoot, everyone in town smoked. The children weren't dropping like flies. While I wouldn't expose my own children to second hand smoke (were I ever to have them), I think that the number of child deaths attributed to smoking in one of the articles may be a little high. I find myself wondering about the validity of the studies, but, I'm not really going to look into it, so my opinion ain't worth crap on the matter, I guess.

[Phox]

If people don't want to be exposed to second hand smoke, I can understand. I go out of my way to accommodate others, I don't even bother to ask first, I find a nice, isolate spot outside to smoke, and take the wind direction into account. If they're smokers too, fuck it, already inhaling the stuff anyway, that doesn't bother me... But I will not stand for anyone telling me I cannot smoke, or advocating an all-out ban on smoking.

Hearing loss... The most talented musicians I know smoke. Is it possible hearing damage is caused by either going to live shows, or playing at live shows? Perhaps the entertainment preferences of smokers are different, and hearing loss is unrelated to smoking. Ever go to a bar? A good proportion of the people who go to bars are smokers. When the bars no longer allow smoking, you start to see a huge drop in business. Is it possible that the entertainment preferences of some non-smokers involves sitting in a sound-proof cave, eating tofu and broccoli, and sipping tea? A number of them are already averse to damaging themselves by smoking, so I don't think it's such a great leap to think that their other habits, such as music listening and the like, may be toned down a bit. Me, I like greasy burgers and bloody steaks. I like scotch, straight, and I like to smoke my brains out while listening to deafening roars of sound.

When I was young, I remember the sickly greenish yellow furniture in my parents house. It was once white... All my relatives smoked, shoot, everyone in town smoked. The children weren't dropping like flies. While I wouldn't expose my own children to second hand smoke (were I ever to have them), I think that the number of child deaths attributed to smoking in one of the articles may be a little high. I find myself wondering about the validity of the studies, but, I'm not really going to look into it, so my opinion ain't worth crap on the matter, I guess.

[AFK]

If people don't want to be exposed to second hand smoke, I can understand. I go out of my way to accommodate others, I don't even bother to ask first, I find a nice, isolate spot outside to smoke, and take the wind direction into account. If they're smokers too, fuck it, already inhaling the stuff anyway, that doesn't bother me... But I will not stand for anyone telling me I cannot smoke, or advocating an all-out ban on smoking.

I'm not for telling someone they can't smoke, and I don't advocate an all-out ban on smoking everywhere.  However, I do support designating no-smoking areas, I support banning smoking in public places, I do support the ban on smoking in bars and pubs.  For the health of the employees if no one else.  

Hearing loss... The most talented musicians I know smoke. Is it possible hearing damage is caused by either going to live shows, or playing at live shows? Perhaps the entertainment preferences of smokers are different, and hearing loss is unrelated to smoking. Ever go to a bar? A good proportion of the people who go to bars are smokers. When the bars no longer allow smoking, you start to see a huge drop in business.

[citation needed]  They banned smoking in bars in Portland (Maine).  Business in the Old Port is just as good as it was before the ban.  People go outside to have their smoke, then they go back in to resume drinking, watching the band, etc.  

Is it possible that the entertainment preferences of some non-smokers involves sitting in a sound-proof cave, eating tofu and broccoli, and sipping tea? A number of them are already averse to damaging themselves by smoking, so I don't think it's such a great leap to think that their other habits, such as music listening and the like, may be toned down a bit. Me, I like greasy burgers and bloody steaks. I like scotch, straight, and I like to smoke my brains out while listening to deafening roars of sound.

From what portion of your ass did you pull that?  I'm a non-smoker.  When I lived in Portland I spent my weekends at one of two bars listening, and occasionally performing.  I like a loud, dirty, rock club as much as the next guy.  But, as someone who works in the field of public health, I also understand the impact second hand smoke can have, namely on the employees of these places.  I don't think it is a big deal to ask patrons to have their butts outside.  

When I was young, I remember the sickly greenish yellow furniture in my parents house. It was once white... All my relatives smoked, shoot, everyone in town smoked. The children weren't dropping like flies. While I wouldn't expose my own children to second hand smoke (were I ever to have them), I think that the number of child deaths attributed to smoking in one of the articles may be a little high. I find myself wondering about the validity of the studies, but, I'm not really going to look into it, so my opinion ain't worth crap on the matter, I guess.

Well, if you're going to throw shit out and not back it up, then yeah, you're right.  

[Adios]

If people don't want to be exposed to second hand smoke, I can understand. I go out of my way to accommodate others, I don't even bother to ask first, I find a nice, isolate spot outside to smoke, and take the wind direction into account. If they're smokers too, fuck it, already inhaling the stuff anyway, that doesn't bother me... But I will not stand for anyone telling me I cannot smoke, or advocating an all-out ban on smoking.

Hearing loss... The most talented musicians I know smoke. Is it possible hearing damage is caused by either going to live shows, or playing at live shows? Perhaps the entertainment preferences of smokers are different, and hearing loss is unrelated to smoking. Ever go to a bar? A good proportion of the people who go to bars are smokers. When the bars no longer allow smoking, you start to see a huge drop in business. Is it possible that the entertainment preferences of some non-smokers involves sitting in a sound-proof cave, eating tofu and broccoli, and sipping tea? A number of them are already averse to damaging themselves by smoking, so I don't think it's such a great leap to think that their other habits, such as music listening and the like, may be toned down a bit. Me, I like greasy burgers and bloody steaks. I like scotch, straight, and I like to smoke my brains out while listening to deafening roars of sound.

When I was young, I remember the sickly greenish yellow furniture in my parents house. It was once white... All my relatives smoked, shoot, everyone in town smoked. The children weren't dropping like flies. While I wouldn't expose my own children to second hand smoke (were I ever to have them), I think that the number of child deaths attributed to smoking in one of the articles may be a little high. I find myself wondering about the validity of the studies, but, I'm not really going to look into it, so my opinion ain't worth crap on the matter, I guess.

Most of those 'studies' are so biased it's like listening to Rush.

[Fujikoma]

RWHN:

I'm glad you're only for banning it in public places, I can accept that, as I can go outside. It's not a big deal to me, but now you hear talk in some places (California, I think) about them banning smoking wherever people are gathered, what doesn't seem to get discussed on the radio (mostly NPR, which was supportive of this sort of thing) is how appropriate that is if the entire group is smoking... Yeah, you wander into a crowd of non-smokers with a cigarette, that's wrong. A concern of mine is how they will interpret and enforce such laws.

What you said about Portland, yeah, it was kind of the same in downtown Austin. Austin has a LOT of live music, and not being able to smoke in the bars doesn't keep people away, lots of tourism and the like, and you just can't find that sort of thing at a whole lot of other places... Where it hits hard are the smaller bars, who don't have a bunch of live music, on the outskirts of the city. Ok, ok, here's a link:

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Smoking_ban

Scroll down to where it talks about the effects on business... Notice who paid for what study. Academic and government studies say there is no effect, the bars say there is... Of course, government studies are going to support government policy (and the studies payed for by the bars are typically going to support the point of view of the bars). Academic I don't know anything about, so I'm not saying anything about that. Bars, pubs, resteraunts, they're going to talk about what is hitting their pocketbooks. Now, it's entirely possible that some of them are overstating their drop in business. It's also entirely possible that what I've observed with my own eyes is prone to bias (which is probably why I can't get away with just asspulling shit anywhere).

That's great if you're not one of those sound proof cave dwellers, my stepdad is, though. He doesn't agree with a smoking ban, but he doesn't smoke and doesn't want to be around it, he also doesn't drink. This does not prove my point, however, I'm just saying, they're out there, not a figment of my imagination. I didn't say "you", or "all", I said some. If you want me to give an exact number, or a statistic, I'm sorry, I can't do that (nor would I trust the statistic even if I found it). "Some" does not even mean "most" or "just less than half". It means some... It was also speculation as to where the mysterious non-smoker majority spends its time (which was inappropriate of me, and I apologize), as it seems (if you believe the people talking about their own drop in business) they're not frequenting the smaller bars even after the air has been cleared for them.

At most of the smoking bars and pool halls I've been to, the staff smokes. If they don't, I don't think it's too much to ask for them to take their butts somewhere else for a job. Just sayin'. Other than that, I don't see that much of a disagreement here, other than over the rights of a business owner to run their businesses as they see fit, within reason. You know, you could always make a statement with where you take your business, which is pretty much the message some smokers get from these non-smoking laws. It doesn't bother me to go outside, but it does worry me that it's part of a creeping agenda.

[AFK]

Yes, it is part of the creeping agenda of improving and protecting public health.  It isn't some nefarious plot to stick it to smokers.  The policies and laws are not being put in place to punish smokers.  The laws and policies are about limiting exposure to second hand smoke. 

[Fujikoma]

I'd rather not expose an unwilling person to second hand smoke, honestly... And as far as public health is concerned, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Prüss-Üstün hoped the findings would serve as a catalyst for countries to enforce the WHO's Framework Convention on Tobacco Control, a global initiative aimed at reducing the burden of tobacco-related disease by increasing taxes on tobacco products, banning tobacco advertising, eliminating smoking in public places, and making packs less commercially attractive.

"Policy-makers should bear in mind that enforcing complete smoke-free laws will probably substantially reduce the number of deaths attributable to exposure to second-hand smoke within the first year of its implementation, with accompanying reduction in costs of illness in social and health systems," she said.

From:
http://www.jointogether.org/news/research/summaries/2002/researchers-secondhand-smoke.html

How is this not sticking it to smokers? And what does the part in bold mean? I'm probably reading too much into this, but can you see my cause for concern here?

EDIT: Concern for public health brought us such monstrosities as prohibition and the war on drugs.

EDIT EDIT: Charley beat me to it...

[Adios]

I'd rather not expose an unwilling person to second hand smoke, honestly... And as far as public health is concerned, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Prüss-Üstün hoped the findings would serve as a catalyst for countries to enforce the WHO's Framework Convention on Tobacco Control, a global initiative aimed at reducing the burden of tobacco-related disease by increasing taxes on tobacco products, banning tobacco advertising, eliminating smoking in public places, and making packs less commercially attractive.

"Policy-makers should bear in mind that enforcing complete smoke-free laws will probably substantially reduce the number of deaths attributable to exposure to second-hand smoke within the first year of its implementation, with accompanying reduction in costs of illness in social and health systems," she said.

From:
http://www.jointogether.org/news/research/summaries/2002/researchers-secondhand-smoke.html

How is this not sticking it to smokers? And what does the part in bold mean? I'm probably reading too much into this, but can you see my cause for concern here?

Because prohibition and the war on drugs worked so well, right?