Italy to ban plastic bags

[Disco Pickle]

completely relevant to population problem direction this thread has taken.

there's 8 videos in the set, that's part one and the rest are easily found on the side bar.  REALLY good lecture basically discussing how humanity's inability to truly grasp the concept of exponential growth is the real problem that will do us in.

the example he uses with the jar is just fucking great at explaining it for non math heads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY&feature=BF&list=FLKNpJnoWqQVE&index=88

Over population is self correcting.

you should watch the videos.  I think you'll like the lecture.

[LMNO]

the example he uses with the jar is just fucking great at explaining it for non math heads.

I've seen that video.  When the thing shatters in his anus, it's a singular experience.

[Disco Pickle]

the example he uses with the jar is just fucking great at explaining it for non math heads.

I've seen that video.  When the thing shatters in his anus, it's a singular experience.

I had almost forgotten about that god damned video.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

There has subsequently been a decrease in soil erosion caused by over-farming and an overall decline in the use of pesticides and fertilizers.

A decrease from what level?  How bad was it?

I mean, I know Kansas and Nebraska are both deserts now, but besides that.  

But according to that link, your argument is that we're bad people because we're constantly improving our farming techniques, or bad because we aren't utterly perfect?

My arguement was that we are overfarming.  Not that we are bad people. Good for us for improving, unfortunately we improved with some very toxic pesticides and GM crops,  both of which are dangerous in ways that we don't even fully understand (especcially the GM crops)  the ideal solution would be lower intensity farming, but that is not possible while feeding a high population.

Actually I think that your argument was that we (the US) are overpopulated, and you switched it to overfarming when you were proven wrong.

[Adios]

There has subsequently been a decrease in soil erosion caused by over-farming and an overall decline in the use of pesticides and fertilizers.

A decrease from what level?  How bad was it?

I mean, I know Kansas and Nebraska are both deserts now, but besides that.  

But according to that link, your argument is that we're bad people because we're constantly improving our farming techniques, or bad because we aren't utterly perfect?

My arguement was that we are overfarming.  Not that we are bad people. Good for us for improving, unfortunately we improved with some very toxic pesticides and GM crops,  both of which are dangerous in ways that we don't even fully understand (especcially the GM crops)  the ideal solution would be lower intensity farming, but that is not possible while feeding a high population.

Actually I think that your argument was that we (the US) are overpopulated, and you switched it to overfarming when you were proven wrong.

Which is even more wrong.

[Adios]

Bananas are good food.

[hooplala]

Bananas are good food.

[Phox]

Non-sequitur.

[Cain]

Are you seriously disputing that we consume a lot more per capita than Chinese people,Indian people or Africans?  I can source if I have to, but I know there's no way you're going to read the sources.

Honestly, I'm more curious how you'd accurately measure something like this, considering the scant amount of information available on some of the societies in question.

In Africa in particular, aid fraud and corruption is rife.  There are villages in Sierra Leone with more prosthetic limbs than people living in them (militias during the civil war had a nasty tendency to lop off limbs.  Those who survived were sent to special limbless villages, for some bizarre reason.  Those villagers now make a living out of hiding the vast amounts of aid they are given by the international community and complaining about how hard done by they are).  In the Goma "refugee camp", the Rwandan genocidaires were eating more food than the average person in western Europe....in fact, they stepped up "food taxation" via their cell structure in the camp to the point where they could use it to finance daily raids back into Rwanda, to kill more "Tutsi cockroaches".

Lack of food isn't a resource/distribution issue anyway, except in the vaugest of senses.  Food distribution is a political weapon.  Nations in Africa, such as Sudan and Ethiopia, are only too happy to hoard food from resource rich regions, send in soldiers to kill farmers and burn down crops, and then invite humanitarian organizations in to carry the cost of feeding their population.  Starving your own population is cheaper than feeding them, keeps them from rebelling, and the useful idiots in the humanitarian aid community and media will always be there to pick up the costs.

This probably accounts far more for differences in resource consumption between Africans and Americans than any other issue, outside of certain extremely arid areas.

[the last yatto]

Bananas are good food.

Isn't there a shortage?

[Rumckle]

Bananas are good food.

Isn't there a shortage?

I doubt it, because bananas are proof that God exists, therefore God wouldn't let there be a shortage of bananas.

[Triple Zero]

I got to add to Cain's story a bit, though. A good friend of mine has been doing her final years of medical school (co-assistentship) in Africa (she went multiple times, to Tanzania and Malawi amongst other places), and from her stories, I really got the impression that a lot of the aid does actually end up helping people.

I'm sure Cain's point still stands, but I just wanted to add that it's not entirely as if all the aid that goes to Africa ends up in a bottomless pit either (before people start to use it as an argument that all foreign aid is useless).

However, it's an interesting topic, and I'll be sure to ask her about it next time I see her. I didn't get that impression from her stories. But on the other hand, her accounts of usefulness of the aid has been from a doctor's perspective, and spoke more about level of medical education, and cultural differences in work ethics.

Bananas are good food.

Isn't there a shortage?

No, but there is something about the monoculture in global banana production that makes them extra vulnerable to disease and that might make the strain that we commonly know as a normal banana non-viable for large scale production at some point in the future. We'd still have bananas, but they'd look and/or taste different than we're used to.

In other news Iceland grows bananas, too. And that is wonderful.

[BabylonHoruv]

I got to add to Cain's story a bit, though. A good friend of mine has been doing her final years of medical school (co-assistentship) in Africa (she went multiple times, to Tanzania and Malawi amongst other places), and from her stories, I really got the impression that a lot of the aid does actually end up helping people.

I'm sure Cain's point still stands, but I just wanted to add that it's not entirely as if all the aid that goes to Africa ends up in a bottomless pit either (before people start to use it as an argument that all foreign aid is useless).

However, it's an interesting topic, and I'll be sure to ask her about it next time I see her. I didn't get that impression from her stories. But on the other hand, her accounts of usefulness of the aid has been from a doctor's perspective, and spoke more about level of medical education, and cultural differences in work ethics.

Bananas are good food.

Isn't there a shortage?

No, but there is something about the monoculture in global banana production that makes them extra vulnerable to disease and that might make the strain that we commonly know as a normal banana non-viable for large scale production at some point in the future. We'd still have bananas, but they'd look and/or taste different than we're used to.

In other news Iceland grows bananas, too. And that is wonderful.

I am curious how Icelandic Bananas taste as opposed to tropical bananas.  Do they have a sulfery flavor from the hot springs I wonder?

[the last yatto]

Bananas are good food.

Isn't there a shortage?

I doubt it, because bananas are proof that God exists, therefore God wouldn't let there be a shortage of bananas.

http://ethiopiaforums.com/banana-shortage-hits-ethiopian-capital

[Cain]

I got to add to Cain's story a bit, though. A good friend of mine has been doing her final years of medical school (co-assistentship) in Africa (she went multiple times, to Tanzania and Malawi amongst other places), and from her stories, I really got the impression that a lot of the aid does actually end up helping people.

I'm sure Cain's point still stands, but I just wanted to add that it's not entirely as if all the aid that goes to Africa ends up in a bottomless pit either (before people start to use it as an argument that all foreign aid is useless).

Not entirely useless no, but a lot of it is.

Lots of non-professional organizations end up sending crap (ski equipment was sent to the Goma camp mentioned above, for example.  Since Goma is set near an active volcano, in DR Congo) and useless medical supplies (diet pills were sent to Kenya by one group).

Religious groups tend to either end up doing missionary work foremost or, for some strange reason, getting involved in human trafficking and kidnapping children (like the American church in Haiti recently.  Similar events have happened in Sierra Leone, DR Congo and other areas).

Professional aid groups are bound by humanitarian aid laws and customs, which mean they cannot avoid giving aid to any particular group.  As a consequence, they almost always end up helping to fund the conflict, acting as auxilaries for medical and food supplies which, almost immediately after they are given to individuals, are then seized as "taxes" or, more accurately, "plunder" by the warring parties.  Also, in most war zones, aid agencies need the permission of either the country's leader, or regional warlords, to operate in that region.  Permission is often granted with about 5-20% of the budget of any aid project being handed over to that leader, no questions asked.

Some aid is good, yes.  Hell, I did aid work in Peru, helping to build a school in an impoverished community. The French MSF in particular seem to hold themselves to very high ethical standards, probably as a result of their original disupte with the International Red Cross.  But the aid industry, as a whole, has a lot to answer for.  In any zone where aid agencies work, schools and hospitals are left by the wayside, as restaurants and entertainment complexes are built first, to cater to the needs of foreign organizations.  Inflation caused by an influx of rich foreigners often destroys the local economy, leaving entire industries destitute.  As a result of that, prostitution (especially child prostitution) and drug-dealing become entrenched in local communities.  The destruction of the local economy makes the area dependent on foreign aid for its needs, justifying a permament NGO presence which, for the reasons detailed above, means the area likely wont recover.