More "population based counterinsurgency" at work

Started by Cain, January 14, 2011, 06:20:39 PM

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The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Doktor Phox on January 14, 2011, 07:20:38 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2011, 07:12:57 PM
Quote from: Doktor Phox on January 14, 2011, 07:11:14 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2011, 07:09:24 PM
Welcome to the Empire™, Phoxie.

Glad to be here, Roger. It's slightly better than being on the outside.

Tetanus is slightly better than botulism.  At least at first.

Good point.

Sure.  Botulism, you just lose the ability to smile, then you lie down and die.

Tetanus, you get achey and sore, and then you can't stop SMILING, and then you convulse until all your bones break and your muscles pull loose, and THEN you die.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Charley Brown on January 14, 2011, 07:22:52 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2011, 07:09:24 PM
Welcome to the Empire™, Phoxie.

Since our Empire began this has been going on. Look up Wounded Knee.

Textbook Botulism epidemic, that was.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Phox

That's goddamn chilling, Roger. And completely dead on.  :horrormirth:

The Good Reverend Roger

Quote from: Doktor Phox on January 14, 2011, 07:32:43 PM
That's goddamn chilling, Roger. And completely dead on.  :horrormirth:

The good news is, near the end, if you squint a bit, it looks like everyone's dancing.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Cain

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2011/01/18/military-jtf2-probe.html

QuoteA member of Canada's elite special forces unit says he felt his peers were being "encouraged" by the Canadian Forces chain of command to commit war crimes in Afghanistan, according to new documents obtained by CBC News.

The documents from the military ombudsman's office show the member of the covert unit Joint Task Force 2, or JTF2, approached the watchdog in June 2008 to report the allegations of wrongdoing he had first made to his superior officers in 2006.

The soldier told the ombudsman's office "that although he reported what he witnessed to his chain of command, he does not believe they are investigating, and are being 'very nice to him,' " according to the documents, which CBC News obtained through access to information.

As such, the soldier alleged, the chain of command helped create an atmosphere that tolerated war crimes.

The ombudsman's documents state the soldier was subsequently directed to the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service, CFNIS, which in turn launched its own investigation.

The CFNIS told the ombudsman the investigation was "now their No. 1 priority."

The member alleged that a fellow JTF2 member was involved in the 2006 shooting death of an Afghan who had his hands up in the act of surrender. That CFNIS probe ended without any charges.

The soldier who raised those allegations also claimed that in January 2008, his team was sent to conduct a mission alongside an American special operations team. He said he witnessed the U.S. forces kill a man who was wounded and unarmed.

The documents make clear that the soldier didn't believe the military was taking his allegations seriously and that he had lost faith in the forces' leadership.

He told the ombudsman's office in one of many telephone conversations he felt "more and more of his peers are being encouraged to commit war crimes by the chain of command ... which they may be held accountable for one day as superiors walk away."

The soldier said he wasn't coming forward to have "the guys who pull the trigger" investigated, who he said were "being incited to do those things" by their superiors.

"This is done by promoting those who do, and not promoting those who don't," the ombudsman's office staffer handling the file wrote in the document.
'Southern friends'

The soldier also claimed the "vision of the southern friends is being pushed" — an apparent reference to the more aggressive reputation of the American soldiers.

The soldier told the ombudsman in September 2008 of his concern that "similar acts may be ongoing while his allegations are being investigated," the documents said.

The military ombudsman's office told the soldier it did not have the mandate to probe allegations of criminal activity and that his file would be closed. But the staff said he could contact the ombudsman's office at any time.

But in an October 2008 letter sent to Canada's chief of defence staff, Gen. Walter Natynczyk, the ombudsman urged the military to investigate swiftly.

Natynczyk was alerted of the soldier's claims and told the ombudsman he was confident the investigation was being conducted "in a most thorough and professional manner."

It has now been two years since Natynczyk made the statement, and 4½ years since the soldier initially complained to the chain of command within JTF2.

Among a separate set of documents CBC News has obtained on the file is a reference in a military email chain that the soldier has repeatedly "indicated he may go public with some of his concerns, including the fact that his benefits have ceased."

Those documents do not specify which benefits were stopped or why.

Wheeee.

Adios


Cain

And while I'm here

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/01/201111114112880358.html

QuoteThe Arbakai, semi-official local militias, have committed tremendous abuses in Afghanistan's northeastern provinces of Kunduz and Baghlan. President Hamid Karzai finally ordered their disarmament last month...

In Baghlan province, too, the Arbakai have harassed locals for funds and worse. In Central Baghlan district, for example, 600 Arbakais are active. According to the source close to the National Security Council, Arbakai have raided homes at night, forced taxes on people, and killed as many as 15 individuals in clashes within two weeks.

"They have committed tens of murders in Baghlan, yet no one is able to bring them to justice," says Abdul Shaker Erfani, member of the Baghlan Development Council. The Arbakai, he says, has turned into a liability for the government, derailing any sense of legitimacy.

"In areas under Taliban control, murders are investigated swiftly," says Mr. Erfani. "In the government areas, unfortunately, no one asks about such murders."

It is really worth reading the whole article, though.

Jenne

Quote from: Cain on January 20, 2011, 02:53:34 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2011/01/18/military-jtf2-probe.html


...explains a lot about how Wade saw his posts and his upcoming trip to Afghanistan.  I've met a lot of well, gung-ho if not just ready-to-war soldiers online that are about to deploy.  And he was the most...blood-thirsty?...about it.  I'm sure he learned pretty quick, though, the cost of such attitudes.  Here in San Diego, the folks who've been delpoyed for the SIXTH fucking time in 8 years are not so hot to kill them a haji.

As for the Talibs "investigating" a murder...I'm not going to pretend that their investigations have anything to do with what we would consider any sort of justice.  I have to see more evidence that they have more in view than their own powermongering gain.

The problem is not raising up the armies of Afghanistan to police themselves, goddammit.  It's the problem of motherfucking EDUCATION.  These guys enter into a position of power over someone and never see a FUCKING longview for the life of them.  They have no vision of a future other than right here and now and this week but not necessarily next.  With this short-sighted view, you aren't going to raise a set of people up to command and lead but instead another greedy mob that will disfigure and destroy.

EDUFUCKINGCATION.  Reading, writing, math--get that shit in their heads.  Teach them their own fucking history.  The history of their land--remind them of where they come from and who they come from.  The art and livelihood of their happy times is just forgotten.  They live day to day in a wasteland of pity, sorrow and avarice.  Even the most just of them rape and lie and steal.  From the lowest of their people.  Because they are all too desperate to know any better.

THIS is the turn of the page in history where you say, Well dammit, we've done it.  We've gone and torn the fabric of humanity, rent it from stem to sternum, and there's naught left but the threads dragging on the ground.  In the muck, mire and the motherfucking impossibility of anything good coming out of anywhere.

There's such a desperation of want and need and desire and very little compunction to share and dream and relent enough to GROW.  There's no thrive to the jive...just pain and more pain.  I know we've built schools, and there's MILLIONS learning more every day.  But for every child with acid in her face as she goes to school, there's a rifle butt to someone's head taking her brother off to enforced prostitution.

I'm just...I don't know...tired of the excuses that the problem isn't solvable.  It's just not solvable in this way, dammit.  Not this way.

Cain

Although, to be fair to the Canadian military, Wade wasn't special forces, unless their usage of the word "special" is somewhat different to that in most other militaries.

Adios

Quote from: Cain on January 22, 2011, 07:08:41 PM
Although, to be fair to the Canadian military, Wade wasn't special forces, unless their usage of the word "special" is somewhat different to that in most other militaries.

This made me giggle.

Phox

Quote from: Cain on January 20, 2011, 02:53:34 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2011/01/18/military-jtf2-probe.html

Wheeee.

Oh, so Canada's not so different from the US after all. That is so much more comforting. So should I go to the UK then?

Cain

British troops in Helmand Province have been described by American anthropologists working with the US military as boorish, arrogant imperialists who think throwing money around the place and acting superior is a viable strategy.

The Germans, meanwhile, hide in their military bases and call out airstrikes with the smallest of provocations, or, when by some miracle they actually end up near a real fight, end up chopping up bodies for trophies, usually finger bones or skulls.

Adios

French Military rifles for sale.

Never fired and only dropped once.

Cain

Actually, the French are probably the most disciplined force in the country right now.  While their tactics are rather vanilla, they tend to be careful about things like civilian casualties, and have a reputation (among American troops in particular) for sticking to their plans.  I've also seen no indication of war crimes being committed by the French, even in the Afghan War Diaries (though I admit to not doing a thorough search in that regard).

Also, for those wondering, the Australians rarely venture outside of Kabul, for political reasons.