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ATTN: Philosphy Assholes

Started by Richter, January 26, 2011, 02:52:16 PM

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Richter

Does a true dichotomy exist?

I've seen false dichotomy tossed in as a fallacy on several arguements.  It appears that there may be no such animal, and any dichotomy, duality, black or white situation outside computers or electrical circuits is, in fact, a lie.

If you have any clarification on this, please enlighten.
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on May 22, 2015, 03:00:53 AM
Anyone ever think about how Richter inhabits the same reality as you and just scream and scream and scream, but in a good way?   :lulz:

Friendly Neighborhood Mentat

Adios


Phox

Quote from: Richter on January 26, 2011, 02:52:16 PM
Does a true dichotomy exist?

I've seen false dichotomy tossed in as a fallacy on several arguements.  It appears that there may be no such animal, and any dichotomy, duality, black or white situation outside computers or electrical circuits is, in fact, a lie.

If you have any clarification on this, please enlighten.

As a Taoist, I'm totally biased and unfit to answer this question.  :lulz:

Richter

Quote from: Eater of Clowns on May 22, 2015, 03:00:53 AM
Anyone ever think about how Richter inhabits the same reality as you and just scream and scream and scream, but in a good way?   :lulz:

Friendly Neighborhood Mentat

Richter

Quote from: Doktor Phox on January 26, 2011, 02:58:14 PM
Quote from: Richter on January 26, 2011, 02:52:16 PM
Does a true dichotomy exist?

I've seen false dichotomy tossed in as a fallacy on several arguements.  It appears that there may be no such animal, and any dichotomy, duality, black or white situation outside computers or electrical circuits is, in fact, a lie.

If you have any clarification on this, please enlighten.

As a Taoist, I'm totally biased and unfit to answer this question.  :lulz:

I once had a talk with a co worker about Tao.  It nearly became a fist fight.  I'm inclined to say Tao is superior.
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on May 22, 2015, 03:00:53 AM
Anyone ever think about how Richter inhabits the same reality as you and just scream and scream and scream, but in a good way?   :lulz:

Friendly Neighborhood Mentat

Adios

Quote from: Richter on January 26, 2011, 03:05:55 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on January 26, 2011, 02:56:43 PM
There is one in my pance.
Quote from: Charley Brown on January 26, 2011, 02:56:43 PM
There is one in my pance.

Shouldn't you say there are two then?

Yes, but only with the stipulation that the second one may not actually exist.

LMNO

A dichotomy can exist if you set up systems with game rules that describes discreet elements.

My current mode of thinking still inhabits the realm of "Chaos = Order (Illusion) + Disorder (Illusion)", which is shorthand for exactly the problem you're running into-- that in the universe we exist in right now, when looked at as a whole, there is no such thing a duality.

But that becomes a very hard perspective to hold onto, because as humans our brains aren't built to see reality that way.  So it then becomes a question of where the limits of our Illusions are, where do we draw the line, which game rules can we choose.  "2+2=4" is true when we use the game rules of formal math, but if you change the game rules, to (for instance) art, then "2+2=an ineffable flavor of Mediterranian sunset" could be an acceptable answer.

Richter

Quote from: Charley Brown on January 26, 2011, 03:08:06 PM
Quote from: Richter on January 26, 2011, 03:05:55 PM
Quote from: Charley Brown on January 26, 2011, 02:56:43 PM
There is one in my pance.
Quote from: Charley Brown on January 26, 2011, 02:56:43 PM
There is one in my pance.

Shouldn't you say there are two then?

Yes, but only with the stipulation that the second one may not actually exist.

Ah.... a Schrodinger's Balls situation.
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on May 22, 2015, 03:00:53 AM
Anyone ever think about how Richter inhabits the same reality as you and just scream and scream and scream, but in a good way?   :lulz:

Friendly Neighborhood Mentat

Richter

Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 26, 2011, 03:08:47 PM
A dichotomy can exist if you set up systems with game rules that describes discreet elements.

My current mode of thinking still inhabits the realm of "Chaos = Order (Illusion) + Disorder (Illusion)", which is shorthand for exactly the problem you're running into-- that in the universe we exist in right now, when looked at as a whole, there is no such thing a duality.

But that becomes a very hard perspective to hold onto, because as humans our brains aren't built to see reality that way.  So it then becomes a question of where the limits of our Illusions are, where do we draw the line, which game rules can we choose.  "2+2=4" is true when we use the game rules of formal math, but if you change the game rules, to (for instance) art, then "2+2=an ineffable flavor of Mediterranian sunset" could be an acceptable answer.

Interesting stuff.  I may be a little too RAW in this, but I'd say we're all involved, willingly or not, in a system of game rules that describe discreet elements.  In this view, this reality tunnel, we can trick ourselves into thinking that a dichotomy as a viewpoint works, but then we end up in excessively black vs. white thinking.  Dichotomy strikes me as useful shorthand for situations that don't really require deeper explaination or inquiry.

"Is anyone in that burning house alive?", "No they're all dead."  Cool!  no reason to have anyone risk their asses. 

As far as personal views, I generally try to stick with how much of what's going on I can recognize, understand, or learn.
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on May 22, 2015, 03:00:53 AM
Anyone ever think about how Richter inhabits the same reality as you and just scream and scream and scream, but in a good way?   :lulz:

Friendly Neighborhood Mentat

LMNO

Yup, that's pretty much what I was trying to convey.  Of course, it leads to a lot of arguments where the scope is not previously defined, and each person has a different limit.


Adios

Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 26, 2011, 04:03:41 PM
Yup, that's pretty much what I was trying to convey.  Of course, it leads to a lot of arguments where the scope is not previously defined, and each person has a different limit.



That is why it can really only be discussed in the abstract. Otherwise it becomes a mental circle jerk.

Bebek Sincap Ratatosk

Quote from: Richter on January 26, 2011, 03:53:48 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 26, 2011, 03:08:47 PM
A dichotomy can exist if you set up systems with game rules that describes discreet elements.

My current mode of thinking still inhabits the realm of "Chaos = Order (Illusion) + Disorder (Illusion)", which is shorthand for exactly the problem you're running into-- that in the universe we exist in right now, when looked at as a whole, there is no such thing a duality.

But that becomes a very hard perspective to hold onto, because as humans our brains aren't built to see reality that way.  So it then becomes a question of where the limits of our Illusions are, where do we draw the line, which game rules can we choose.  "2+2=4" is true when we use the game rules of formal math, but if you change the game rules, to (for instance) art, then "2+2=an ineffable flavor of Mediterranian sunset" could be an acceptable answer.

Interesting stuff.  I may be a little too RAW in this, but I'd say we're all involved, willingly or not, in a system of game rules that describe discreet elements.  In this view, this reality tunnel, we can trick ourselves into thinking that a dichotomy as a viewpoint works, but then we end up in excessively black vs. white thinking.  Dichotomy strikes me as useful shorthand for situations that don't really require deeper explaination or inquiry.

"Is anyone in that burning house alive?", "No they're all dead."  Cool!  no reason to have anyone risk their asses. 

As far as personal views, I generally try to stick with how much of what's going on I can recognize, understand, or learn.

So what we could say is that Dichotomy exists within the models that we used to describe/discuss/investigate reality, rather than reality itself.
- I don't see race. I just see cars going around in a circle.

"Back in my day, crazy meant something. Now everyone is crazy" - Charlie Manson

LMNO

Yup.  But considering that we experience life through models, and not "reality itself", it's pretty fucking important to figure out in which model a certain dichotomy belongs.

Richter

Sounds about right, incorrect overlap of where people are using the timesaving tricks / model, and where others are being more stringent.
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on May 22, 2015, 03:00:53 AM
Anyone ever think about how Richter inhabits the same reality as you and just scream and scream and scream, but in a good way?   :lulz:

Friendly Neighborhood Mentat

Requia ☣

A or not-A is a true dichotomy off the top of my head.  Of course, that only applies to the subset of problems where Logic actually applies.  IE, no problems that actually matter outside of science & engineering.
Inflatable dolls are not recognized flotation devices.