SPLIT: Magidgique Discussion from Intro Thread

Started by Icey, January 31, 2011, 05:04:09 PM

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The Good Reverend Roger

#45
January 31, 2011, 06:11:35 PM
In essence, the pros and cons of both approaches are:

Chaos Magick:

Pros - You don't have to use math.  You can use it to get laid with fat, smelly trustafarian college girls (The ECH Principle).

Cons - It doesn't work.

Science :

Cons - You have to learn math.  You have to prove your idea.  It has to survive peer review. 

Pros - It works.  Will not get you laid with fat, smelly trustafarian college girls.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#46
January 31, 2011, 06:13:38 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on January 31, 2011, 06:08:41 PM
Can somebody bump or link us to one of the existing MADGIDUQE threads? I know we all love arguing the same points over and over again, but maybe if we read through the old threads somebody can bring something new to the discussion?


I'm having fun.  Someone else can do it.  If they do, I'll split this thread and graft it on to the mahdjgickque thread.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

LMNO

#47
January 31, 2011, 06:16:17 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2011, 06:06:02 PM
Or, hell, let's get down to brass tacks.  Can Chaos Magick produce measurable, repeatable results?

Because from everything I've heard and seen, it's just a big, drippy sack of confirmation bias.

Well, I already took the pseudo-definitions* of NLP and self-hypnosis off the table, which leaves measurable results that contradict the way we expect the universe to be have under non-magick circumstances.  So we need an explanation of how that works; and then we can design an experiment to test it.











*Because you know Rat will bring them up.

LMNO

#48
January 31, 2011, 06:17:24 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on January 31, 2011, 06:08:41 PM
Can somebody bump or link us to one of the existing MADGIDUQE threads? I know we all love arguing the same points over and over again, but maybe if we read through the old threads somebody can bring something new to the discussion?

Well, I'v been trying a new angle -- even if the universe is subjective rather than objective, it behaves as if it is objective, and still doesn't explain chaos magick.

The Good Reverend Roger

#49
January 31, 2011, 06:17:57 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 31, 2011, 06:16:17 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2011, 06:06:02 PM
Or, hell, let's get down to brass tacks.  Can Chaos Magick produce measurable, repeatable results?

Because from everything I've heard and seen, it's just a big, drippy sack of confirmation bias.

Well, I already took the pseudo-definitions* of NLP and self-hypnosis off the table, which leaves measurable results that contradict the way we expect the universe to be have under non-magick circumstances.  So we need an explanation of how that works; and then we can design an experiment to test it.











*Because you know Rat will bring them up.

NLP and self-hypnosis go in the same boat as "visualizing" and "affirmations" with me.  New agey shit that does what you should already be doing...ie, getting off your spotty arse and getting things done.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

LMNO

#50
January 31, 2011, 06:19:34 PM
And hence, should not be defined as "magick".

The Good Reverend Roger

#51
January 31, 2011, 06:22:00 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 31, 2011, 06:17:24 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on January 31, 2011, 06:08:41 PM
Can somebody bump or link us to one of the existing MADGIDUQE threads? I know we all love arguing the same points over and over again, but maybe if we read through the old threads somebody can bring something new to the discussion?

Well, I'v been trying a new angle -- even if the universe is subjective rather than objective, it behaves as if it is objective, and still doesn't explain chaos magick.

And that's been interesting and infuriating at the same time...Because the very idea of a subjective universe makes me shit my pance in frothing rage.

The universe is what it is, and it doesn't give a fuck what anyone thinks.  No matter how many "sigils" you "charge" or "servitors" you "make", gravity is still going to do it's thing, as are all the other measurable forces and phenomena in the universe.

I don't hate people who believe in this magick shit (well, any more than I hate all the other monkeys infesting my planet), but it's kind of enraging, watching presumably intelligent people believe in fairy tales.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

LMNO

#52
January 31, 2011, 06:24:46 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2011, 06:22:00 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 31, 2011, 06:17:24 PM
Well, I've been trying a new angle -- even if the universe is subjective rather than objective, it behaves as if it is objective, and still doesn't explain chaos magick.

And that's been interesting and infuriating at the same time...Because the very idea of a subjective universe makes me shit my pance in frothing rage.

The point being, of course, that trying to redesign the universe to suit your whims still doesn't solve the problem.


And there's something to be said about pance-shitting froth rage.

Luna

#53
January 31, 2011, 06:25:29 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2011, 06:22:00 PM

And that's been interesting and infuriating at the same time...Because the very idea of a subjective universe makes me shit my pance in frothing rage.

The universe is what it is, and it doesn't give a fuck what anyone thinks.  No matter how many "sigils" you "charge" or "servitors" you "make", gravity is still going to do it's thing, as are all the other measurable forces and phenomena in the universe.

I don't hate people who believe in this magick shit (well, any more than I hate all the other monkeys infesting my planet), but it's kind of enraging, watching presumably intelligent people believe in fairy tales.

Nah, I've got no issues with people believing in fairy tales, if it keeps them entertained and reasonably quiet.  It's the ones who feel compelled to make you believe in their fairy tales that give me hives.
Death-dealing hormone freak of deliciousness
Pagan-Stomping Valkyrie of the Interbutts™
Rampaging Slayer of Shit-Fountain Habitues

"My father says that almost the whole world is asleep. Everybody you know, everybody you see, everybody you talk to. He says that only a few people are awake, and they live in a state of constant, total amazement."

Quote from: The Payne on November 16, 2011, 07:08:55 PM
If Luna was a furry, she'd sex humans and scream "BEASTIALITY!" at the top of her lungs at inopportune times.

Quote from: Nigel on March 24, 2011, 01:54:48 AM
I like the Luna one. She is a good one.

Quote
"Stop talking to yourself.  You don't like you any better than anyone else who knows you."

The Good Reverend Roger

#54
January 31, 2011, 06:28:29 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 31, 2011, 06:24:46 PM
The point being, of course, that trying to redesign the universe to suit your whims still doesn't solve the problem.

Precisely.  Ignoring the World As It Really Is always has consequences, to one degree or another.  Usually, these consequences are restricted to wasting your brief, irreplaceable time, but can be far more serious depending on the situation.  In an extreme enough situation, you could wind up under a bridge, or dead, or even banging a fat, smelly trustafarian college girl.  The mind recoils in horror.

Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 31, 2011, 06:24:46 PM
And there's something to be said about pance-shitting froth rage.

Yes, it gets me through the workday, for one.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

The Good Reverend Roger

#55
January 31, 2011, 06:29:05 PM
Quote from: Luna on January 31, 2011, 06:25:29 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2011, 06:22:00 PM

And that's been interesting and infuriating at the same time...Because the very idea of a subjective universe makes me shit my pance in frothing rage.

The universe is what it is, and it doesn't give a fuck what anyone thinks.  No matter how many "sigils" you "charge" or "servitors" you "make", gravity is still going to do it's thing, as are all the other measurable forces and phenomena in the universe.

I don't hate people who believe in this magick shit (well, any more than I hate all the other monkeys infesting my planet), but it's kind of enraging, watching presumably intelligent people believe in fairy tales.

Nah, I've got no issues with people believing in fairy tales, if it keeps them entertained and reasonably quiet.  It's the ones who feel compelled to make you believe in their fairy tales that give me hives.

I already mentioned Calvinists.   :lulz:
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

"Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

Icey

#56
January 31, 2011, 07:17:48 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2011, 06:06:02 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 31, 2011, 06:03:53 PM
Ok, let's say that consensus reality exists, and furthermore that it's not even contingent on consciousness.

Which means that in all reliable verifiable observations made for at least the last hundred years, if not the last thousand, the universe behaves as if there are known physical laws.


And even after all that, you still haven't explained how your Chaos Magick affects them.

Or, hell, let's get down to brass tacks.  Can Chaos Magick produce measurable, repeatable results?

Because from everything I've heard and seen, it's just a big, drippy sack of confirmation bias.

Yes and no. Chaos magic bends the odds, not breaks them. I can't really make a bowl of pudding appear out of thin air (though I'd love to) because even if I were to bend said odds, it's still horrendously unlikely for said action to happen. Now, if I wanted something easier to happen, say, I want a localized power outage. I'm playing with better odds. It's much more likely (even though it may still be unlikely on average comparison) and that can be made to happen, though it may be not the way you wanted it to happen.

As for the confirmation bias, that's the kicker. If I did the whole ritual deal to get something to happen, say a rainstorm. How can I prove that it was me somehow pulling the strings, and not just what was already going to happen? I can't. At the end of the day, it comes down to subjective belief.

The same crutch used by your common church I will admit.

But, two things make chaos magic different.

One, whatever "power" I have isn't some ethereal nonsense that god gives me. If I want a hamburger, sitting on my ass talking about this is not going to increase the odds of me getting a hamburger. Going to fucking McDonalds will increase my odds. So, I'm not going to sit and sigil night and day for money, because that doesn't help you get money. Getting a job does. Chaos magic is about altering odds to gain or discourage what you want. Which, turns out, includes mundane tasks as well.

Two, the main, 100% goal of chaos magic is to induce evolution of the self. I.E. dropping restrictions that you place on self "I can't be an artist. I suck" and to create a more objective worldview, because getting all wrapped up in modern belief systems leads us to create disgusting internal blocks on what we really want. Essentially, chaos magic seeks to do somewhat what your BIP does.

Recap, I don't use chaos magic to ask the ether to solve my problems, you have to go out and get shit done. And, even if you don't believe in the hokey bit of it, chaos magic seeks to free people from their internal and external boundries, and let them be who they really want to be.

And, though I may seem an argumentative asshat, it is nice to meet you all.

LMNO

#57
January 31, 2011, 07:25:35 PM
Hold on a second.  You're claiming to affect causality?

Adios

#58
January 31, 2011, 07:26:32 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 31, 2011, 07:25:35 PM
Hold on a second.  You're claiming to affect causality?



:lulz:

Disco Pickle

#59
January 31, 2011, 07:32:29 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on January 31, 2011, 07:25:35 PM
Hold on a second.  You're claiming to affect causality?



he think's Marvel Comic's The Scarlett Witch is an autobiography.
"Events in the past may be roughly divided into those which probably never happened and those which do not matter." --William Ralph Inge

"sometimes someone confesses a sin in order to take credit for it." -- John Von Neumann
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