A little handy gaming advice #2: How to hold a group together.

[Don Coyote]

It is, and didn't you say it was an actual relic?  RELICS SHOULD NOT BE SUNDERABLE.  E/O/S.

HE said ALL holy avengers are minor RELICS.....

I can buy that, as a house rule.  But the problem is, you can't sunder something with a higher plus than the weapon you're using, and the HA is +5.  So there's some serious bullshit going on there.

Sunder

You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Sunder feat, or a similar ability, attempting to sunder an item provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack is successful, you deal damage to the item normally. Damage that exceeds the object's Hardness is subtracted from its hit points. If an object has equal to or less than half its total hit points remaining, it gains the broken condition (see Conditions). If the damage you deal would reduce the object to less than 0 hit points, you can choose to destroy it. If you do not choose to destroy it, the object is left with only 1 hit point and the broken condition.

And

Smashing an Object

Smashing a weapon or shield with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon is accomplished with the sunder combat maneuver (see Combat). Smashing an object is like sundering a weapon or shield, except that your combat maneuver check is opposed by the object's AC. Generally, you can smash an object only with a bludgeoning or slashing weapon.

Armor Class: Objects are easier to hit than creatures because they don't usually move, but many are tough enough to shrug off some damage from each blow. An object's Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier (see Table: Size and Armor Class of Objects) + its Dexterity modifier. An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (–5 penalty to AC), but also an additional –2 penalty to its AC. Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon.

Hardness: Each object has hardness—a number that represents how well it resists damage. When an object is damaged, subtract its hardness from the damage. Only damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object's hit points (see Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points, Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points, and Table: Object Hardness and Hit Points).

Hit Points: An object's hit point total depends on what it is made of and how big it is (see Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points, Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points, and Table: Object Hardness and Hit Points). Objects that take damage equal to or greater than half their total hit points gain the broken condition (see Conditions). When an object's hit points reach 0, it's ruined.

And

Magic Armor, Shields, and Weapons: Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield, and +10 to the item's hit points.

This +2 cold iron longsword becomes a +5 holy cold iron longsword in the hands of a paladin.

When wielded by a paladin, this sacred weapon provides spell resistance of 5 + the paladin's class level to the wielder and anyone adjacent to her. It also enables the paladin to use greater dispel magic (once per round as a standard action) at the class level of the paladin. Only the area dispel is possible, not the targeted dispel or counterspell versions of greater dispel magic.

Cold iron has 30 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 10.

Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20

So my understanding of the rules is a holy avenger would have a hardness of 20 (cold iron 10 plus the +5 enhancement bons X 2 =20) and would have 60 hit points (base of 10 plus 5 x 10).

I was using at +2 adamantine greatsword which would ignore all of the hardness of the holy avenger thus dealing all rolled damage to the weapon on a successful sunder attempt which would be 2d6+8 average damage of 15 and I would (using my paladin's CMD as an idea how hard it would be to sunder a similarly leveled paladin) sunder on a 7 or higher on the attack roll with the first attempt and 12 or higher on the second attempt per round if I were to full attack with sunders which is allowable because a sunder is an attack not a standard action. I was also large and buffed with bull's strength so um....yea I think I hit the holy avenger 3 times before it went BOOM. No warning that 1) it was a holy avenger or that I was facing an MCd paladin 2) that holy avengers would explode and no option to NOT destroy the weapon despite the rules stating other wise.

[Doktor Howl]

It is, and didn't you say it was an actual relic?  RELICS SHOULD NOT BE SUNDERABLE.  E/O/S.

HE said ALL holy avengers are minor RELICS.....

I can buy that, as a house rule.  But the problem is, you can't sunder something with a higher plus than the weapon you're using, and the HA is +5.  So there's some serious bullshit going on there.

Sunder

You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Sunder feat, or a similar ability, attempting to sunder an item provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack is successful, you deal damage to the item normally. Damage that exceeds the object's Hardness is subtracted from its hit points. If an object has equal to or less than half its total hit points remaining, it gains the broken condition (see Conditions). If the damage you deal would reduce the object to less than 0 hit points, you can choose to destroy it. If you do not choose to destroy it, the object is left with only 1 hit point and the broken condition.

And

Smashing an Object

Smashing a weapon or shield with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon is accomplished with the sunder combat maneuver (see Combat). Smashing an object is like sundering a weapon or shield, except that your combat maneuver check is opposed by the object's AC. Generally, you can smash an object only with a bludgeoning or slashing weapon.

Armor Class: Objects are easier to hit than creatures because they don't usually move, but many are tough enough to shrug off some damage from each blow. An object's Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier (see Table: Size and Armor Class of Objects) + its Dexterity modifier. An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (–5 penalty to AC), but also an additional –2 penalty to its AC. Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon.

Hardness: Each object has hardness—a number that represents how well it resists damage. When an object is damaged, subtract its hardness from the damage. Only damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object's hit points (see Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points, Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points, and Table: Object Hardness and Hit Points).

Hit Points: An object's hit point total depends on what it is made of and how big it is (see Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points, Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points, and Table: Object Hardness and Hit Points). Objects that take damage equal to or greater than half their total hit points gain the broken condition (see Conditions). When an object's hit points reach 0, it's ruined.

And

Magic Armor, Shields, and Weapons: Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield, and +10 to the item's hit points.

This +2 cold iron longsword becomes a +5 holy cold iron longsword in the hands of a paladin.

When wielded by a paladin, this sacred weapon provides spell resistance of 5 + the paladin's class level to the wielder and anyone adjacent to her. It also enables the paladin to use greater dispel magic (once per round as a standard action) at the class level of the paladin. Only the area dispel is possible, not the targeted dispel or counterspell versions of greater dispel magic.

Cold iron has 30 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 10.

Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20

So my understanding of the rules is a holy avenger would have a hardness of 20 (cold iron 10 plus the +5 enhancement bons X 2 =20) and would have 60 hit points (base of 10 plus 5 x 10).

I was using at +2 adamantine greatsword which would ignore all of the hardness of the holy avenger thus dealing all rolled damage to the weapon on a successful sunder attempt which would be 2d6+8 average damage of 15 and I would (using my paladin's CMD as an idea how hard it would be to sunder a similarly leveled paladin) sunder on a 7 or higher on the attack roll with the first attempt and 12 or higher on the second attempt per round if I were to full attack with sunders which is allowable because a sunder is an attack not a standard action. I was also large and buffed with bull's strength so um....yea I think I hit the holy avenger 3 times before it went BOOM. No warning that 1) it was a holy avenger or that I was facing an MCd paladin 2) that holy avengers would explode and no option to NOT destroy the weapon despite the rules stating other wise.

The rules have overtaken me.

Rule was redacted in ed 5 of the CRB.  Any weapon can sunder any weapon.

[Freeky]

It is, and didn't you say it was an actual relic?  RELICS SHOULD NOT BE SUNDERABLE.  E/O/S.

HE said ALL holy avengers are minor RELICS.....

I can buy that, as a house rule.  But the problem is, you can't sunder something with a higher plus than the weapon you're using, and the HA is +5.  So there's some serious bullshit going on there.

+5, or +5 and then abilities piled on?  I call shenaniganry on this, too.

Only the enhancement bonus counts for that purpose, but how many +5 weapons are floating around?

True, but I thought the bonus cost counted towards it.  Not for purposes of bonuses, but like as a level indicator.

[Don Coyote]

It is, and didn't you say it was an actual relic?  RELICS SHOULD NOT BE SUNDERABLE.  E/O/S.

HE said ALL holy avengers are minor RELICS.....

I can buy that, as a house rule.  But the problem is, you can't sunder something with a higher plus than the weapon you're using, and the HA is +5.  So there's some serious bullshit going on there.

+5, or +5 and then abilities piled on?  I call shenaniganry on this, too.

Only the enhancement bonus counts for that purpose, but how many +5 weapons are floating around?

True, but I thought the bonus cost counted towards it.  Not for purposes of bonuses, but like as a level indicator.

Total bonuses count for the gold piece cost of the magical item and for some class abilities/spells that can add pluses to weapons.

[Freeky]

I didn't know there were class things that boosted...  Wait.  Magus, and paladin.  Derp.

[Cainad (dec.)]

I want to play in a Dok game now

Thing is, it isn't brain surgery.  Everyone is there to have FUN, to escape for a while into a place where you can solve your problems by smashing them flat or burninating them, whatever. 

When it becomes "come worship my campaign, miserable peons" or "Let me make this as miserable as the real world", why bother?

So you leave your ego at the door (to a degree, you don't want to not give a shit about what you deliver), and you sit down, and you arrange some FUN for your players.  Every group is different, so that DOESN'T mean "give them everything they want", but it DOES mean "give them the sort of adventure they want".  My groups tend to want heroic combat, Indiana Jones Ginormous rolling boulder traps, etc.  Other groups like intrigue, I understand. 

But the point is, no matter what the group is after, it's the DM's job to provide that for 3-6 hours a week, and also to have fun doing it.

Oooooh lordy THIS. It's something I worry about doing myself as a DM, mostly the former mistake, because I get very caught up in imaginary settings, but I haven't really inflicted that pain on any players because I've DM'd so few sessions.

I always try to think about what a rule, especially a combat rule, will actually result in the real-life players DOING. As in, are they engaged in using their game skills and real-life thinking to overcome a challenge, or are they grinding away with yet another "realistic" simulationist rule thrown on top? The answer will vary somewhat depending on the player preferences, but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

I also recently came to an epiphany about "story-focused" campaigns. Most of the time they are horsecock, because they focus on the story that the DM is babbling their players, resulting in NPC Theater and bored player (unless the DM is a phenomenal storyteller, which is possible but rare, I think).

What "story-focused" should mean is a focus on the story the PLAYERS will be able to tell after the game is done. What's the story that THEY will be able to tell in the first-person active voice?

[Freeky]

I also recently came to an epiphany about "story-focused" campaigns. Most of the time they are horsecock, because they focus on the story that the DM is babbling their players, resulting in NPC Theater and bored player (unless the DM is a phenomenal storyteller, which is possible but rare, I think).

What "story-focused" should mean is a focus on the story the PLAYERS will be able to tell after the game is done. What's the story that THEY will be able to tell in the first-person active voice?

I disagree emphatically with this, but maybe I just have a phenomenal story-focused DM.  He makes up plot points and some things are completely unavoidable (like some dude showing up with an army), but the players have major effects on how the story plays out, and consequences stay in effect even if a PC dies. 

Pretty cool, I think. 

But then, this is for a game which is story-centric, and combat means SOMEBODY IS DYING (good thing there are NPCs and luck!)