CRAMULUS

[hooplala]

I agree.

And I was just about to say "I will think about this more tonight at home, when I'm not working" and then the irony smacked me on the head with a hammer.

[pH]

Its because people dislike change, and have beliefs set in that "I am me and they are not me, and we cant be the same because we dont look the same, so I cant associate me internally with them"

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Its because people dislike change, and have beliefs set in that "I am me and they are not me, and we cant be the same because we dont look the same, so I cant associate me internally with them"

Nope.

It's "Is there someone below me on the totem pole that I can shit on, so I can ignore the people shitting on me from above?"

That's how the South got soldiers to fight for a system that would guarantee social immobility for those very same soldiers.  It's how poor people are taught to hate Blacks and Mexicans instead of the people that actually are ruining them.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Its because people dislike change, and have beliefs set in that "I am me and they are not me, and we cant be the same because we dont look the same, so I cant associate me internally with them"

Nope.

It's "Is there someone below me on the totem pole that I can shit on, so I can ignore the people shitting on me from above?"

That's how the South got soldiers to fight for a system that would guarantee social immobility for those very same soldiers.  It's how poor people are taught to hate Blacks and Mexicans instead of the people that actually are ruining them.

Yup. Consider the source. Who benefits the most from it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The word "white", as I have already explained a few times, is just a hotbutton

Then why use it, if it's not the actual point?  Why not just say "middle class"?

I'm not trying to start anything, it's an honest question.

Because "white" is technically accurate...not our fault if it makes people uncomfortable.

How so?  How are middle class black people exempt?

I'm not trying to say that I don't think white people have had it good for a long time, but I take issue with the attempt to make me feel guilty over an issue I have no control over, and feel I haven't contributed to.  So yes, the accusation (if that is a fair word to use) makes me uncomfortable.  I suppose this is something I will need to put a lot more thought into.

I think you are very close to having your finger on it with the line "an issue I have no control over, and feel I haven't contributed to".

What we are discussing here is privilege, which is EXACTLY "an issue I have no control over, and feel I haven't contributed to". But the middle classes reap privilege, including intellectual privilege... the privilege to step outside of "normal" thinking. I grew up very very poor, yet I still reap the benefits of having an educated, white, middle class mother. In the US, race is implicated in class strata, although I think less so than many people believe. That might make me, and several other middle-class black women I know, the recipient of white privilege, although it would be hard to deny that we don't receive the same level of white privilege that a white man does.

[hooplala]

The word "white", as I have already explained a few times, is just a hotbutton

Then why use it, if it's not the actual point?  Why not just say "middle class"?

I'm not trying to start anything, it's an honest question.

Because "white" is technically accurate...not our fault if it makes people uncomfortable.

How so?  How are middle class black people exempt?

I'm not trying to say that I don't think white people have had it good for a long time, but I take issue with the attempt to make me feel guilty over an issue I have no control over, and feel I haven't contributed to.  So yes, the accusation (if that is a fair word to use) makes me uncomfortable.  I suppose this is something I will need to put a lot more thought into.

I think you are very close to having your finger on it with the line "an issue I have no control over, and feel I haven't contributed to".

What we are discussing here is privilege, which is EXACTLY "an issue I have no control over, and feel I haven't contributed to". But the middle classes reap privilege, including intellectual privilege... the privilege to step outside of "normal" thinking. I grew up very very poor, yet I still reap the benefits of having an educated, white, middle class mother. In the US, race is implicated in class strata, although I think less so than many people believe. That might make me, and several other middle-class black women I know, the recipient of white privilege, although it would be hard to deny that we don't receive the same level of white privilege that a white man does.

Ah, I see now.  Yes that makes sense.

Now I can pinpoint that the uncomfortableness I felt when it was brought up was probably latent guilt for knowing it's true, like when someone says something in an argument and it makes  you mad, despite not having any proof against the comment.  The anger stems from the suspicion that something you don't like is true.  Like, if someone said "Hoopla, you have pink glittering antlers growing from your forehead" I would simply laugh and pretty much pity that person for being deluded, but when someone says "Atheists use faith to back up their claims as much as religious people do" I get angry, maybe because it's true?

Sorry, I know my analogy sort of drifted from the topic, but it's how I formulate thought.  I'm mostly thinking out loud via a keyboard now.

[pH]

Its because people dislike change, and have beliefs set in that "I am me and they are not me, and we cant be the same because we dont look the same, so I cant associate me internally with them"

Nope.

It's "Is there someone below me on the totem pole that I can shit on, so I can ignore the people shitting on me from above?"

That's how the South got soldiers to fight for a system that would guarantee social immobility for those very same soldiers.  It's how poor people are taught to hate Blacks and Mexicans instead of the people that actually are ruining them.

Yup. Consider the source. Who benefits the most from it.

So then is it more that people are concerned with having someone to shit on, or that the person they shit on is of a different color?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The word "white", as I have already explained a few times, is just a hotbutton

Then why use it, if it's not the actual point?  Why not just say "middle class"?

I'm not trying to start anything, it's an honest question.

I'm playing with it.

I've been told that I am "culturally white", which pissed me off, because what the hell does that even mean? But I decided I'd run with it a little, and what I've found is that it seriously upsets the fuck out of white people. I find that fascinating, and well worth exploring.

I am "culturally Roger".

ETA:  I think "culturally White" means that you aren't behaving as people expect you to behave.  They don't have a convenient label, so they just pasted that one on and hoped it would stick.

Yes, I think so too... and I also think that it's very very telling that being educated, intelligent, and articulate are "white" qualities in the eyes of some otherwise intelligent and thoughtful-seeming people.

Not to generalize all white people, but I am noticing a trend, which is that many white people think of it as a compliment to tell a brown person that they don't think of them as brown, yet an insult to tell a white person the same thing.

I think that a lot of us would like to think that we have transcended race, but the fact that this word is such a hotbutton for so many people is, to me, an indication that we have a lot more talking to do about it. I also think that if we are conscious of it, we can use this.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Its because people dislike change, and have beliefs set in that "I am me and they are not me, and we cant be the same because we dont look the same, so I cant associate me internally with them"

Nope.

It's "Is there someone below me on the totem pole that I can shit on, so I can ignore the people shitting on me from above?"

That's how the South got soldiers to fight for a system that would guarantee social immobility for those very same soldiers.  It's how poor people are taught to hate Blacks and Mexicans instead of the people that actually are ruining them.

Yup. Consider the source. Who benefits the most from it.

So then is it more that people are concerned with having someone to shit on, or that the person they shit on is of a different color?

Yes.  This is why many hate the Jews, too.

The trick is, "the enemy" has to be readily identifiable and/or catagorized.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Not to generalize all white people, but I am noticing a trend, which is that many white people think of it as a compliment to tell a brown person that they don't think of them as brown, yet an insult to tell a white person the same thing.

I just tell people I think of them as primates and really, really wish they'd just get off my planet.

Racism can only truly end when I am the last person on the face of the Earth.

[Luna]

isms suck.

[Requia ☣]

The word "white", as I have already explained a few times, is just a hotbutton

Then why use it, if it's not the actual point?  Why not just say "middle class"?

I'm not trying to start anything, it's an honest question.

I'm playing with it.

I've been told that I am "culturally white", which pissed me off, because what the hell does that even mean? But I decided I'd run with it a little, and what I've found is that it seriously upsets the fuck out of white people. I find that fascinating, and well worth exploring.

I am "culturally Roger".

ETA:  I think "culturally White" means that you aren't behaving as people expect you to behave.  They don't have a convenient label, so they just pasted that one on and hoped it would stick.

I always thought it meant you were part of the standard mainstream culture, grew up in a suburb surrounded by white people etc.

Of course, this is pretty much the opposite of Nigel  

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The word "white", as I have already explained a few times, is just a hotbutton

Then why use it, if it's not the actual point?  Why not just say "middle class"?

I'm not trying to start anything, it's an honest question.

Because "white" is technically accurate...not our fault if it makes people uncomfortable.

How so?  How are middle class black people exempt?

I'm not trying to say that I don't think white people have had it good for a long time, but I take issue with the attempt to make me feel guilty over an issue I have no control over, and feel I haven't contributed to.  So yes, the accusation (if that is a fair word to use) makes me uncomfortable.  I suppose this is something I will need to put a lot more thought into.

I think you are very close to having your finger on it with the line "an issue I have no control over, and feel I haven't contributed to".

What we are discussing here is privilege, which is EXACTLY "an issue I have no control over, and feel I haven't contributed to". But the middle classes reap privilege, including intellectual privilege... the privilege to step outside of "normal" thinking. I grew up very very poor, yet I still reap the benefits of having an educated, white, middle class mother. In the US, race is implicated in class strata, although I think less so than many people believe. That might make me, and several other middle-class black women I know, the recipient of white privilege, although it would be hard to deny that we don't receive the same level of white privilege that a white man does.

Ah, I see now.  Yes that makes sense.

Now I can pinpoint that the uncomfortableness I felt when it was brought up was probably latent guilt for knowing it's true, like when someone says something in an argument and it makes  you mad, despite not having any proof against the comment.  The anger stems from the suspicion that something you don't like is true.  Like, if someone said "Hoopla, you have pink glittering antlers growing from your forehead" I would simply laugh and pretty much pity that person for being deluded, but when someone says "Atheists use faith to back up their claims as much as religious people do" I get angry, maybe because it's true?

Sorry, I know my analogy sort of drifted from the topic, but it's how I formulate thought.  I'm mostly thinking out loud via a keyboard now.

That is a very good analogy, I think.

It is a really uncomfortable topic, and even more uncomfortable if you may be the recipient of a privilege that is based in something you disagree with. I am light-skinned and could probably "pass", which brings me a type of privilege I find very very uncomfortable. How fucked up is that? It's natural to want to deny it, (in fact, my own mother tried to deny it a couple of weeks ago, LOL) but it's real and denying it won't change anything.

[Disco Pickle]

Its because people dislike change, and have beliefs set in that "I am me and they are not me, and we cant be the same because we dont look the same, so I cant associate me internally with them"

Nope.

It's "Is there someone below me on the totem pole that I can shit on, so I can ignore the people shitting on me from above?"

That's how the South got soldiers to fight for a system that would guarantee social immobility for those very same soldiers.  It's how poor people are taught to hate Blacks and Mexicans instead of the people that actually are ruining them.

I'm generally of the opinion that racism is learned from parents first, reinforced in childhood by being with other children who've learned the same shit, and either unlearned in early adulthood, or otherwise carried through life like a virus, ready to infect their children as well.

Is it any different than the anti-italianism of the late 1800's/ early 1900's?  And was that, in your opinion, driven by the same thinking?

I don't think I've ever seen more racism than I did when I was still in the public school system.  Adults that hold onto it are more than likely just keeping it to themselves.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

The word "white", as I have already explained a few times, is just a hotbutton

Then why use it, if it's not the actual point?  Why not just say "middle class"?

I'm not trying to start anything, it's an honest question.

I'm playing with it.

I've been told that I am "culturally white", which pissed me off, because what the hell does that even mean? But I decided I'd run with it a little, and what I've found is that it seriously upsets the fuck out of white people. I find that fascinating, and well worth exploring.

I am "culturally Roger".

ETA:  I think "culturally White" means that you aren't behaving as people expect you to behave.  They don't have a convenient label, so they just pasted that one on and hoped it would stick.

I always thought it meant you were part of the standard mainstream culture, grew up in a suburb surrounded by white people etc.

Of course, this is pretty much the opposite of Nigel  

What, exactly, makes growing up in a suburb "white"?

What makes mainstream culture "white" by default?