Shyness vs. gynophobia

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I have been thinking about the difference in men who claim to be shy, between shyness and fear of women, which is what some men who claim to be "shy" actually exhibit. Since I know many men who are legitimately shy but are not specifically afraid of women, I think these are two separate categories. Gynophobia combined with a sense of entitlement often seems to result in a misonynistic rhetoric, in which the gynophobic man feels oppressed by "female sexual privilege", yet feels both entitled to and deprived of sexual attention from attractive women. This seems to me to be a completely different pathology from actual shyness, which follows a socially differentiated path rather than a sexually differentiated path.

More on this later when I'm less tired. Please add your thoughts.

[Don Coyote]

I love women and their woman bits.

I am shy.

I am also tired with a brain turning into mush due to a woman.



I think you might be on to something with that.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I love women and their woman bits.

I am shy.

I am also tired with a brain turning into mush due to a woman.



I think you might be on to something with that.

I've been talking with you for what, close to a year? And, like my other shy friends, have never seen you exhibit either gynophobia nor misogyny.

I really think these are separate categories that need to be explored and recognized.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I also think that there are androphobic women, who claim shyness but actually exhibit fear of men, often leading to hatred and blame of men in the form of misandry. Again, I  think this is a different issue from "shyness", which is a type of social phobia that can lead to isolation and misanthropy.

[Freeky]

What's a fear of people in general? 

I agree with you, by the way.  Isolation is pretty miserable.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I consider myself both gynophilic () since I tend to relate better to female friends than male friends, and indiscriminately shy if sober. I think that any other person on this board who was in Boston last June can attest to my general quietness, and LMNO in particular has seen the various shades of shyness until I got comfortable around him and his bandmates. I spent a fair amount of time with Pope Tom, but that was due to determination to hang out with another Discordian for more than 45 minutes after everyone went back to Providence.

I think I see what you're saying though.

As far as the ladies go, I never considered myself any more or less attractive than anyone else on average, and therefore, not particularly entitled/disgruntled, either to ladies in general or specific ones in particular. It's always been either an ok, we hit it off, or, well, this is kinda one-sided and I hope I snap out of that soon. But I've definitely run into a couple of guys where... something was off. And maybe with some of them, it was that, what you just hit upon. It's hard to tell sometimes, because when someone is really off, you automatically kinda shut them out. Maybe it's a feedback loop type of thing. I don't know. I try not to associate with creepy misogynistic dudes.

Freeky- anthropophobia?

[Freeky]

Yes. According to google, anyway.

[Cardinal Pizza Deliverance.]

I also think that there are androphobic women, who claim shyness but actually exhibit fear of men, often leading to hatred and blame of men in the form of misandry. Again, I  think this is a different issue from "shyness", which is a type of social phobia that can lead to isolation and misanthropy.

That was me for several years. Shy in general, but I would have happily gut a male who got within my sphere of influence, if I hadn't been so terrified. Luckily, it passed.

[President Television]

Is it possible to be gynophobic without being misogynistic? I am generally terrified of everyone, but I find it especially difficult to talk to the opposite sex. I don't hate anyone for this, because I realize that it's probably my fault, but I still can't help being afraid of rejection. Then again, among the few women that I interact with on a regular basis I have no problems, so I think the problem may just be that I have trouble interacting with people that I haven't already gotten to know, and that my interests are simply less common to women than men in this city (though I have yet to find anyone of either sex who I can have a conversation about music with).
I think my problem is just that I'm a gigantic hipster nerd.
Or maybe I'm rationalizing away an ugly aspect of my psyche because it clashes with everything I believe about gender equality.

Either way, I should get out more.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Yes, it's totally possible to be gynophobic without being misogynistic... the danger comes into play when people start trying to rationalize away their fear as being a result of society's unfairness rather than as a personal issue they need to work on. Rationalizations about the "sexual economy" lead some fearful men to feel put-upon and sorry for themselves.

One of the ugliest forms of this I've seen is when an unattractive man, sometimes overweight or aging, blames the "sexual economy" on the fact that he doesn't have a mate, rather than looking to himself. (Trust me, women do this too, just less often.) He wants the beautiful, slim 24-year-olds he sees around him, and feels constantly rejected by them, so he makes up a story in which he is the victim for not being able to have them. He tells himself, "Women have all the power in the sexual economy; men have to approach many women just to get one, while women are approached by many men and get to pick and choose". That's where misogyny starts; viewing women, and sex, as a commodity.

It's perfectly true that attractive young women are constantly being approached by men., and that commodification is one reason why. It makes it very difficult to sort out which men are appropriate matches who are genuinely interested, and which men are simply taking a scattergun approach and hitting on everyone in the hope of getting a bite. The men who hit on everyone regardless of their actual interest level (or without authentically considering their actual interest level) really muddy the waters for everyone else.

Attractive young men are also frequently approached by women, but the women who approach them are more likely to be in the ball park of an appropriate match in terms of physical beauty and age. For the most part, fat 50-year-old women just don't hit on hot 25-year-old men. I still haven't figured out why fat 50-year-old men hit on hot 25-year-old women, but I think it has to do with ideas about entitlement and the sexual economy.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

In my observation (I've been very interested in shy men for probably about eight to ten years) the best thing you could do to get over your fear of approaching women is to go to bars and parties, and make eye contact and smile.

And just talk to them. Just say hi, or make a comment on the beer or the decor or someone's sweater. Don't hit on them, just talk. Hitting on women is a horrible way to meet women, anyway. Also, staring. No. Never stare. This might sound obvious but I had a friend who was a virgin at 38, and I actually had to tell him that staring at people creeps them the fuck out. Most shy people don't have that problem though; they have the opposite problem.

Here's the thing. You WILL experience rejection. Some women will assume you're hitting on them and will give you the brush off. But you'll also find that very often, after you've made eye contact and smiled (also a good way to make friends with same-sex people) at someone who is an appropriate match for you, in your ball-park in terms of age and beauty and culture (perhaps another terminally awkward hipster) they'll come and talk to you.

[President Television]

Yes, it's totally possible to be gynophobic without being misogynistic... the danger comes into play when people start trying to rationalize away their fear as being a result of society's unfairness rather than as a personal issue they need to work on. Rationalizations about the "sexual economy" lead some fearful men to feel put-upon and sorry for themselves.

One of the ugliest forms of this I've seen is when an unattractive man, sometimes overweight or aging, blames the "sexual economy" on the fact that he doesn't have a mate, rather than looking to himself. (Trust me, women do this too, just less often.) He wants the beautiful, slim 24-year-olds he sees around him, and feels constantly rejected by them, so he makes up a story in which he is the victim for not being able to have them. He tells himself, "Women have all the power in the sexual economy; men have to approach many women just to get one, while women are approached by many men and get to pick and choose". That's where misogyny starts; viewing women, and sex, as a commodity.

It's perfectly true that attractive young women are constantly being approached by men., and that commodification is one reason why. It makes it very difficult to sort out which men are appropriate matches who are genuinely interested, and which men are simply taking a scattergun approach and hitting on everyone in the hope of getting a bite. The men who hit on everyone regardless of their actual interest level (or without authentically considering their actual interest level) really muddy the waters for everyone else.

Attractive young men are also frequently approached by women, but the women who approach them are more likely to be in the ball park of an appropriate match in terms of physical beauty and age. For the most part, fat 50-year-old women just don't hit on hot 25-year-old men. I still haven't figured out why fat 50-year-old men hit on hot 25-year-old women, but I think it has to do with ideas about entitlement and the sexual economy.

Sounds to me like ego's a major factor. It seems like a lot of men just can't handle the idea that they aren't appealing.
In any case, I hope to purge my psyche of all traces of gynophobia. It's a disgusting tendency. I think my problem is that even though I was raised with extremely feminist values, somewhere along the line I started confusing respect with fear. Which is no healthier than misogyny, I think.
Then again, I think whether I am in fact gynophobic is debatable. I think I'm afraid of men just as much as I'm afraid of women. [emo]Most of the time, when I'm out in public, I get the impression that everyone is watching me and judging me, and naturally it makes me completely miserable. The only reason I can even handle it without having nervous breakdowns on a daily basis is that I keep my head down and look at my feet. Which, of course, only leads to more rejection when I do try to interact with people. I believe myself to be stupid, and ugly, and repulsive, and disgusting, and creepy, and insane, and subhuman, and my interactions with these... giants only reinforces that. Everywhere I look, I meet the disapproving gaze of gods, so the only place to look is down.
And then I come to PD to complain about the monkeys. How hypocritical is that? If they're monkeys, I'm a louse.[/emo]

[President Television]

In my observation (I've been very interested in shy men for probably about eight to ten years) the best thing you could do to get over your fear of approaching women is to go to bars and parties, and make eye contact and smile.

And just talk to them. Just say hi, or make a comment on the beer or the decor or someone's sweater. Don't hit on them, just talk. Hitting on women is a horrible way to meet women, anyway. Also, staring. No. Never stare. This might sound obvious but I had a friend who was a virgin at 38, and I actually had to tell him that staring at people creeps them the fuck out. Most shy people don't have that problem though; they have the opposite problem.

Here's the thing. You WILL experience rejection. Some women will assume you're hitting on them and will give you the brush off. But you'll also find that very often, after you've made eye contact and smiled (also a good way to make friends with same-sex people) at someone who is an appropriate match for you, in your ball-park in terms of age and beauty and culture (perhaps another terminally awkward hipster) they'll come and talk to you.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I don't even know how to find out about parties. The very concept of a "party" is alien to me.

ETA: That "HAHAHAHAHA" bit wasn't to be rude or throw your advice back in your face or anything, by the way. That was horrormirth. I have finally realized exactly how pathetic I am. Thank you. That's sincere, too. I need to know the truth if I ever want to change anything.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Nigel nailed it. 

I think there's a flipside, though, and I see a lot of it in my work (psychic line - ducks blows)...a lot of women view men, or rather marriage, as a commodity. They look for boyfriends like they're interviewing prospective employees (he has to make X-amount of money and be tall and blah blah) and they seem to have some kind of time frame for marriage, they'll dump a guy who doesn't live up to it because he "won't commit". All very businesslike but they consider it "love".

It seems to me that if you care enough about somebody that you'd even consider being tied to them for any length of time, you'd work out whatever was mutually agreeable and that would involve compromise...probably just live together or see each other and if you don't have a piece of paper, so what?

I could see all this in the 19th century or something when the alternative to hitting the husband lottery was indentured servitude as a governess or something like that, but it doesn't seem very thought out these days...

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Yes, it's totally possible to be gynophobic without being misogynistic... the danger comes into play when people start trying to rationalize away their fear as being a result of society's unfairness rather than as a personal issue they need to work on. Rationalizations about the "sexual economy" lead some fearful men to feel put-upon and sorry for themselves.

One of the ugliest forms of this I've seen is when an unattractive man, sometimes overweight or aging, blames the "sexual economy" on the fact that he doesn't have a mate, rather than looking to himself. (Trust me, women do this too, just less often.) He wants the beautiful, slim 24-year-olds he sees around him, and feels constantly rejected by them, so he makes up a story in which he is the victim for not being able to have them. He tells himself, "Women have all the power in the sexual economy; men have to approach many women just to get one, while women are approached by many men and get to pick and choose". That's where misogyny starts; viewing women, and sex, as a commodity.

It's perfectly true that attractive young women are constantly being approached by men., and that commodification is one reason why. It makes it very difficult to sort out which men are appropriate matches who are genuinely interested, and which men are simply taking a scattergun approach and hitting on everyone in the hope of getting a bite. The men who hit on everyone regardless of their actual interest level (or without authentically considering their actual interest level) really muddy the waters for everyone else.

Attractive young men are also frequently approached by women, but the women who approach them are more likely to be in the ball park of an appropriate match in terms of physical beauty and age. For the most part, fat 50-year-old women just don't hit on hot 25-year-old men. I still haven't figured out why fat 50-year-old men hit on hot 25-year-old women, but I think it has to do with ideas about entitlement and the sexual economy.

Sounds to me like ego's a major factor. It seems like a lot of men just can't handle the idea that they aren't appealing.
In any case, I hope to purge my psyche of all traces of gynophobia. It's a disgusting tendency. I think my problem is that even though I was raised with extremely feminist values, somewhere along the line I started confusing respect with fear. Which is no healthier than misogyny, I think.
Then again, I think whether I am in fact gynophobic is debatable. I think I'm afraid of men just as much as I'm afraid of women. [emo]Most of the time, when I'm out in public, I get the impression that everyone is watching me and judging me, and naturally it makes me completely miserable. The only reason I can even handle it without having nervous breakdowns on a daily basis is that I keep my head down and look at my feet. Which, of course, only leads to more rejection when I do try to interact with people. I believe myself to be stupid, and ugly, and repulsive, and disgusting, and creepy, and insane, and subhuman, and my interactions with these... giants only reinforces that. Everywhere I look, I meet the disapproving gaze of gods, so the only place to look is down.
And then I come to PD to complain about the monkeys. How hypocritical is that? If they're monkeys, I'm a louse.[/emo]

It's actually not that they're unappealing. They are probably appealing (physically, if not psychologically) to women who are approximately in the same ball park of age and looks. But that's not good enough for them. See the hypocrisy?

Everyone else is exactly as self-absorbed as you are. They're not thinking about you, except inasmuch as they're thinking about you watching them and judging them.

Trust me.