Curious about a concept in the BIP

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have.

IOW, the shaman is an authority figure and everybody else is bringing him skins and horses asking him to fix things. He's like the Pope, he's considered a middleman or a bridge to the supernatural.

Ever heard of "Every man and woman is a Pope" or "Think for yourself, schmuck"?

[Freeky]

Depending on what part of shamanism you are talking about it does and is historically proven to work.  If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have.  Smoke, mirrors and manipulation can be powerful tools. The metaphysical stuff is really up to each person to make heads or tails of and the opinions that arise from that are simply another bar (or construct), no matter which direction you take.

[Succulent Plant]

(and lets not turn this into bashing that particular set of teachings which is easy enough to do, it's just another construct after all).

This isn't TCC, you don't get to dictate what turn threads take here.

[Freeky]

(and lets not turn this into bashing that particular set of teachings which is easy enough to do, it's just another construct after all).

This isn't TCC, you don't get to dictate what turn threads take here.

It's a reasonable enough request, though, or it would be if she could provide more reason than "It's just another construct".

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

Did TCC ever do anything about that horrible skin that made the page take fifteen minutes to load?

[Cain]

Depending on what part of monarchism you are talking about it does and is historically proven to work.  If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have.

Depending on what part of warlordism you are talking about it does and is historically proven to work.  If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have.

Depending on what part of Nazism you are talking about it does and is historically proven to work.  If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have.

Also http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html

What the fuck does "work" mean?  We're talking about reality, not what you can bullshit people into believing which, as history shows, can be virtually anything.  Does shamanism provide a realistic model of the world?  How realistic?  Are other models better? 

(The answers for those wondering are no, not very and most certainly yes)

[Wyldkat]

(and lets not turn this into bashing that particular set of teachings which is easy enough to do, it's just another construct after all).

This isn't TCC, you don't get to dictate what turn threads take here.

It's a reasonable enough request, though, or it would be if she could provide more reason than "It's just another construct".

It's another way of looking at things.  I'm not promoting it or negating it (Casteneda's stuff) as a historical truth or falsehood.  I'm very aware people can tear apart the historical part of his path.  I only brought it up because it was in the BIP and that fascinated me.  

I wasn't dictating, I was more requesting for the reasons given above.  I really am interesting in this subject or I wouldn't have posted it.  I'd really like to hear what other people think about it.

[Wyldkat]

If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have.

IOW, the shaman is an authority figure and everybody else is bringing him skins and horses asking him to fix things. He's like the Pope, he's considered a middleman or a bridge to the supernatural.

Yes, and to hold that position he had to have some ability at convincing people that he COULD fix things and that there was a supernatural for him to be a bridge to.

Ever heard of "Every man and woman is a Pope" or "Think for yourself, schmuck"?

Yes, I have.  I'm not comparing/contrasting shamanism and Discordianism, just this particular aspect that I have found similar in both of them.  They are by no means the same, which is why I found the similarity so fascinating.

P.S.  And TCC still has the same background.

[Wyldkat]

Depending on what part of monarchism you are talking about it does and is historically proven to work.  If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have.

Depending on what part of warlordism you are talking about it does and is historically proven to work.  If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have.

Depending on what part of Nazism you are talking about it does and is historically proven to work.  If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have.

Also http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html

And, your point?  All of the above are true.  You can pull out a history book and point at areas that did work.  It's sort of hard to use a word without accessing it's history if it has one.

What the fuck does "work" mean?  We're talking about reality, not what you can bullshit people into believing which, as history shows, can be virtually anything.  Does shamanism provide a realistic model of the world?  How realistic?  Are other models better? 

(The answers for those wondering are no, not very and most certainly yes)

I didn't start this thread to debate shamanism as a path.  I have my own opinions and really don't care if you or anyone else shares them or not, honestly.  I could have come across the similarity I've found in passing and not follow a path even vaguely related and I'd STILL be curious about it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Which leaves me with the question - but what if shamanism works?

What do you mean "works"?

That instead of being another method of entrapment, it allows a certain acceptance, awareness, and freedom of constraint.

Well, have you read any Robert Anton Wilson? That shit's ALL modern shamanism.

[Wyldkat]

Which leaves me with the question - but what if shamanism works?

What do you mean "works"?

That instead of being another method of entrapment, it allows a certain acceptance, awareness, and freedom of constraint.

Well, have you read any Robert Anton Wilson? That shit's ALL modern shamanism.

I found a quote from him about his goals, ""to try to get people into a state of generalized agnosticism, not agnosticism about God alone but agnosticism about everything"

I like "agnosticism about everything."

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Honest answer?  Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP.  It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.

No disagreement here.  Everything is just a creation.  What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here.  I've also found echos of it elsewhere.

Curious, here.  I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.

Who's doing this teaching?

[Slyph]

Honest answer?  Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP.  It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.

No disagreement here.  Everything is just a creation.  What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here.  I've also found echos of it elsewhere.

Curious, here.  I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.

Who's doing this teaching?

The universal consciousness we all have access to, using the other 90% of our brains Scientists don't know about.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Honest answer?  Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP.  It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.

No disagreement here.  Everything is just a creation.  What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here.  I've also found echos of it elsewhere.

Curious, here.  I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.

Who's doing this teaching?

The universal consciousness we all have access to, using the other 90% of our brains Scientists don't know about.

Blarg.  It's all bullshit, admittedly made up by some tard 60 years ago, and people waste their lives "studying" it and playing make-believe...And arguing about what fucking color the handle of your Cutlery World "Athame" has to be, or who gets to be a "crone" or "high priestess" or whatever other fake authority position is in question.

[Don Coyote]

Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. 

That can be fixed.