Curious about a concept in the BIP

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. 

You wouldn't take care of them.  You'd get bored, and I'd wind up walking the damn things.

[Wyldkat]

Honest answer?  Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP.  It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.

No disagreement here.  Everything is just a creation.  What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here.  I've also found echos of it elsewhere.

Curious, here.  I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.

Who's doing this teaching?

Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation.  You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from.  I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Honest answer?  Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP.  It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.

No disagreement here.  Everything is just a creation.  What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here.  I've also found echos of it elsewhere.

Curious, here.  I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.

Who's doing this teaching?

Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation.  You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from.  I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.

Soooo...No actual sources, then?

[Don Coyote]

Honest answer?  Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP.  It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.

No disagreement here.  Everything is just a creation.  What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here.  I've also found echos of it elsewhere.

Curious, here.  I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.

Who's doing this teaching?

Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation.  You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from.  I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.

Soooo...No actual sources, then?

Dude...so like I channeled afrodite and sore and this due with a a lot of arms and oh shit there was a this book i rote with spells and shit in it. Am I a wizard?

[Wyldkat]

Honest answer?  Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP.  It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.

No disagreement here.  Everything is just a creation.  What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here.  I've also found echos of it elsewhere.

Curious, here.  I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.

Who's doing this teaching?

Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation.  You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from.  I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.

Soooo...No actual sources, then?

Um...  I just explained the term.  The sources would be whatever books, people, etc... that contribute to that particular school of thought, unless books and people are no longer sources in which case you're right.

[Freeky]

Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. 

I expect that you could ask Trip and RWHN to get your goat at any time, however.

[Freeky]

Honest answer?  Shamanism is just another cell in the BIP.  It's just more rubbish to clutter your head with.

No disagreement here.  Everything is just a creation.  What got to me was the fact that literally the exact same teaching was being used in what I study and what I read here.  I've also found echos of it elsewhere.

Curious, here.  I keep hearing you Pagan types talk about "teachings", "studying", and whatnot.

Who's doing this teaching?

Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation.  You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from.  I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.

Soooo...No actual sources, then?

Um...  I just explained the term.  The sources would be whatever books, people, etc... that contribute to that particular school of thought, unless books and people are no longer sources in which case you're right.

The broadly accepted meaning of "source" here at PD is either to link to relevant blogs or posts or whatnot, or quotes from books if there's nothing on the internet handy.  Even wikipedia, even though it's wikipedia, is a source (though I would just use that as a distraction while you find a REAL source.)

We don't take statements or disfavored information for granted, I thought you would have figured that out by now?

[East Coast Hustle]

Also (and though I only speak for myself here I'm reasonably confident that I could be speaking for most of us), who the fuck ever said that Discordianism was supposed to teach anyone anything? Frankly, I'm not only NOT interested in teaching strangers how to live better lives, I'm actively against it.

[AFK]

I always thought that the point of knowing about your prison was to escape, and searching for truth is better than banging the bars of your cell with a tin can, so to speak.

You can't actually escape.  Because you exist in one cell of many within the prison.  However, being aware of the BIP allows you to see the connections to other cells.  That is, you have the awareness to surround yourself with some different bars.  Or, others might recognize their cell, see different options, but come to the conclusion they are happy where they are and remain. 

To escape the prison would mean escaping the bounds of human limitation, which of course isn't possible.  However, having that awareness allows you to discover more within those limitations.  It allows you to see the different Paths that are available to you between life and death. 

[AFK]

Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation.  You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from.  I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.

Speaking as one of the authors of BIP, I wouldn't call what we did as "teaching".  The goal wasn't to tell people how to do something.  It was more like shining a light on something for which the reader may have been in the dark.  "Think For Yourself, Schmuck" isn't instruction.  We never and don't tell people how to think for themselves.  We just recommend highly that they do it, and the BIP gives some examples and evidence as to why that would be desirable.  It really isn't instruction at all. 

[East Coast Hustle]

Generally the term refers to a certain school of thought, like the BIP would be Discordian teachings which in that case the people doing the teaching would be the people who contributed to its creation.  You could use the term Christian teachings for stuff you learn from listening to Christian sermons for example, in which case the teacher would be the person preaching the sermon and to a certain extent whatever sources he/she learned from.  I've also heard the term used by Christians... and I think Mormons so its not just a pagan term.

Speaking as one of the authors of BIP, I wouldn't call what we did as "teaching".  The goal wasn't to tell people how to do something.  It was more like shining a light on something for which the reader may have been in the dark.  "Think For Yourself, Schmuck" isn't instruction.  We never and don't tell people how to think for themselves.  We just recommend highly that they do it, and the BIP gives some examples and evidence as to why that would be desirable.  It really isn't instruction at all. 

I second this.

[Triple Zero]

Which leaves me with the question - but what if shamanism works?

What do you mean "works"?

Well, according to this description:

Depending on what part of shamanism you are talking about it does and is historically proven to work.  If it didn't they wouldn't have held such prominent positions in society for as long as they have.  Smoke, mirrors and manipulation can be powerful tools.

When they lied, deceived and manipulated in order to be able to hold prominent positions in society, if people ended up believing the bullshit, that means that it worked.

So, the part of shamanism that has been historically proven to work, is more commonly known as "politics".

Nothing more and nothing less.

The metaphysical stuff is really up to each person to make heads or tails of and the opinions that arise from that are simply another bar (or construct), no matter which direction you take.

"... and the rest is cultural differences."

[Triple Zero]

Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats. 

I expect that you could ask Trip and RWHN to get your goat at any time, however.

Nigel, epilepsy doesn't make people give you goats. It does however, permit the seizure.

[AFK]

Hey... I take exception to that. I'm epileptic and no one has ever given me any goats.  

I expect that you could ask Trip and RWHN to get your goat at any time, however.

Are you calling me a troll? 

[Payne]

I think Wyldkat and CPD probably need to read the BIP again.

They can do while walking backwards, widdershins, around a stone circle if it makes them happy, but it's definitely time to read it again.

Otherwise Wyldkat can just decide to get offended by "Niger" and cut to the chase.