Orwell v's Huxley

[BabylonHoruv]

One thiing that I didn't like about 1984 ----

the villains were villains - when it came time to show their hand, they explained to Winston that they really were in it for control, crushing freedom, doing evil .. it was a self aware power trip.

And in my mind, the people who are currently pushing us into a dark and claustrophobic future  - in the real world - are doing it with the best possible intentions. The guys performing these sketchy black site interrogations, the people tapping our phone lines, really believe they are protecting us.

And if they're not in it for altruism, they're in it for self interest. Pharmaceutical companies aren't intentionally trying to make a zombie state, they're just trying to make a buck. If they want everybody hooked on drugs, it's not to make the country more docile, it's just so they can make mega profits.

So I think that's where Orwell missed it - he envisions the worst possible government, one that does evil and is aware of it. But in the real world, nobody thinks like that. Well certainly there are some awful people in power who see the underclasses as a resource to be capitalized on, but it's hard for me to think of Bush or Obama in those terms.

That was my main quarrel with BNW too actually, there's a reveal moment where the controller explains that there is indeed a conspiracy running the world.  It felt to me like the sort of environment that could evolve naturally, it doesn't need mysterious masterminds at the switches.

[Elder Iptuous]

That was my main quarrel with BNW too actually, there's a reveal moment where the controller explains that there is indeed a conspiracy running the world.  It felt to me like the sort of environment that could evolve naturally, it doesn't need mysterious masterminds at the switches.

when the controller gave his reveal speech, he admitted that he liked reading the forbidden materials etc., and that he thought it was good, but that he was forced by circumstance to perpetuate the system...

...if i recall correctly.

[Elder Iptuous]

also, for a lighter and more humorous dystopia novel, 'Jennifer Government' is pretty slick, and it shows a future that unfolds without an evil mastermind...

[P3nT4gR4m]

That was my main quarrel with BNW too actually, there's a reveal moment where the controller explains that there is indeed a conspiracy running the world.  It felt to me like the sort of environment that could evolve naturally, it doesn't need mysterious masterminds at the switches.

when the controller gave his reveal speech, he admitted that he liked reading the forbidden materials etc., and that he thought it was good, but that he was forced by circumstance to perpetuate the system...

...if i recall correctly.

I agree. The way I took O'Brien's position was that he'd bought into the "necessary-evil" bill of goods that he himself had been sold. The totalitarianism was an ideology rather than evil for the sake of cackling manically. Part of that ideology insisted that freedom was in fact a great evil. IMO Obrien really believed he was doing the right thing, some of it even regretfully so. The all encompassing propaganda machine that was The Party affected the inner circle as much as anyone else. Ironically the only ones who were afforded any degree of freedom were the Proles.

[Triple Zero]

okay so either way we all agree that if we're growing towards a dystopia of either sort, it will come as a natural "progression" of things, and not because there's a bunch of shady evil dudes outgrowing their puppy-kicking phase and moving on to bigger things.

see also, pretty much any discussion about The Machine we had a couple of years ago.

[P3nT4gR4m]

okay so either way we all agree that if we're growing towards a dystopia of either sort, it will come as a natural "progression" of things, and not because there's a bunch of shady evil dudes outgrowing their puppy-kicking phase and moving on to bigger things.

see also, pretty much any discussion about The Machine we had a couple of years ago.

Yup, no question in my mind. I'm just curious to which flavour of dystopia we're going to end up with. I'm pretty sure I can game both systems but if I can work out which is more likely it means I can start making arrangements right now.

Better to be proactive than reactive

[Elder Iptuous]

Further, Pent, I don't know that the book really disagrees with O'Brien in the end.
is there a passage that preaches about how he is wrong, or does that leave it up to the reader?
I always thought that BNW receives the dystopia label as somewhat of a misnomer.
everyone is happy. (well, almost)

[P3nT4gR4m]

Further, Pent, I don't know that the book really disagrees with O'Brien in the end.
is there a passage that preaches about how he is wrong, or does that leave it up to the reader?
I always thought that BNW receives the dystopia label as somewhat of a misnomer.
everyone is happy. (well, almost)

That's the real saving grace of BNW for me - the devil is irresistible. 1984 is overtly terrifying but BNW gives me the heebie jebbies.

[Elder Iptuous]

BNW gives me warm fuzzies.
what's to fear in a setup like that if everyone is happy and the system is sustainable and works?

I mean, we're steeped in the fiercely individualistic society, but the freedom is only a means to an end, namely, happiness, right?  and iff that end can be reached without freedom, then why not?

[P3nT4gR4m]

BNW gives me warm fuzzies.
what's to fear in a setup like that if everyone is happy and the system is sustainable and works?

I mean, we're steeped in the fiercely individualistic society, but the freedom is only a means to an end, namely, happiness, right?  and iff that end can be reached without freedom, then why not?

My head can't argue but, still the notion makes me wanna puke my guts up. It's why I fell out with utopia in the first place. It's the reason I maintain that the status quo with all it's war and famine and injustice and suffering and pain is the perfect place to live. Without it I would be a hollow fucking shell of a creature. My hate, my rage, my suffering is as much a part of me as my happiness and contentment. I need both goddamnit

Don't get me wrong - at times I swallow soma like it's going out of fashion but only to temporarily calm my rage, not to replace it.

[Elder Iptuous]

I certainly hear you.  it tweaks me to think about it, too.
i think i'm having thoughts about this, but i must ruminate...

[Cainad (dec.)]

BNW gives me warm fuzzies.
what's to fear in a setup like that if everyone is happy and the system is sustainable and works?

I mean, we're steeped in the fiercely individualistic society, but the freedom is only a means to an end, namely, happiness, right?  and iff that end can be reached without freedom, then why not?

The way I argue this is that the BNW doesn't really work towards the happiness of everyone, it works towards satiation. In reality, we've pretty well seen that people's appetites for everything are pretty much insatiable in the long term.

[Placid Dingo]

Further, Pent, I don't know that the book really disagrees with O'Brien in the end.
is there a passage that preaches about how he is wrong, or does that leave it up to the reader?
I always thought that BNW receives the dystopia label as somewhat of a misnomer.
everyone is happy. (well, almost)

That's the real saving grace of BNW for me - the devil is irresistible. 1984 is overtly terrifying but BNW gives me the heebie jebbies.

Huxley himself disliked the world of BNW, but admitted it was technically a utopian world. Thing is, were all a bit more like the protaonists; this world wouldn't make us very happy.
I'm pretty confident BNW represents a conspiracy that really is made in the best interests of the people. 1984 is just a dictatorship that became bold enough to stop lying to itself.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I see both as different solutions to a problem that I don't really have a problem with. I'm a fucking nutter, tho, most people think it needs solving. Sooner or later it's going to happen. The cure is worse than the disease but, by the time anyone figures that out it'll be too far gone. Cool beans. If I'm still around I'll be hating and loving it in equal measure. I love change. Violent and cataclysmic being my favourite flavour but I'll settle for a planet full of doped up rubes if that's how it ends up going down.

[LMNO]

BNW gives me warm fuzzies.
what's to fear in a setup like that if everyone is happy and the system is sustainable and works?

I mean, we're steeped in the fiercely individualistic society, but the freedom is only a means to an end, namely, happiness, right?  and iff that end can be reached without freedom, then why not?

The way I argue this is that the BNW doesn't really work towards the happiness of everyone, it works towards satiation. In reality, we've pretty well seen that people's appetites for everything are pretty much insatiable in the long term.

I think this really narrows it down with precision.