The meaning of life - as communicated to me by Eris herself

[Elder Iptuous]

That's not what I'm doing at all, aside from maybe ranking inconvenience and disappointment as really REALLY low-level suffering. The reason I think you can't be happy without suffering is because without suffering you have no frame of reference with which to experience happy. You'd just be neutral, maybe even depressed. You can't appreciate a good meal unless you're hungry. The hungrier you are the better you enjoy it.

is that strictly true?
isn't happiness just a brain state?  just chemicals? (not to take 'just' as a minimizing modifier)

[Triple Zero]

is that strictly true?
isn't happiness just a brain state?  just chemicals? (not to take 'just' as a minimizing modifier)

If we assume consciousness and memory and mind and all that reside exclusively in our brain, then of course by definition it needs to be "a brain state". But not a very simple one, not really.

There's serotonine levels, but afaik those just make you feel like everything's OK and be complacent, not happiness.

Then there's the pleasure centre in your brain and according to reports from idiots that actually did it and put an electrode there, it's like having sex but never reaching orgasm. Pleasurable, but not very fulfilling, and after a while, very frustrating.

Yet when you put such an electrode in a monkey (or was it mice, I forget), they'll keep stimulating that electrode over everything else, even food and water.

But apparently this doesn't happen with humans. At least, not with those people. Apparently humans really need some sort of "fulfilment", a conclusion, maybe a storyline, or perhaps indeed suffering. They need something extra, just stimulating the pleasure centre doesn't seem to do the trick, at least not for very long. I dunno what exactly that something extra must be, maybe it's related to the same discussion in the other thread. But calling it "freedom" sounds really trite in this context, probably not it.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

That's not what I'm doing at all, aside from maybe ranking inconvenience and disappointment as really REALLY low-level suffering. The reason I think you can't be happy without suffering is because without suffering you have no frame of reference with which to experience happy. You'd just be neutral, maybe even depressed. You can't appreciate a good meal unless you're hungry. The hungrier you are the better you enjoy it.

is that strictly true?
isn't happiness just a brain state?  just chemicals? (not to take 'just' as a minimizing modifier)

We are entirely made out of "just chemicals".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

is that strictly true?
isn't happiness just a brain state?  just chemicals? (not to take 'just' as a minimizing modifier)

If we assume consciousness and memory and mind and all that reside exclusively in our brain, then of course by definition it needs to be "a brain state". But not a very simple one, not really.

There's serotonine levels, but afaik those just make you feel like everything's OK and be complacent, not happiness.

Then there's the pleasure centre in your brain and according to reports from idiots that actually did it and put an electrode there, it's like having sex but never reaching orgasm. Pleasurable, but not very fulfilling, and after a while, very frustrating.

Yet when you put such an electrode in a monkey (or was it mice, I forget), they'll keep stimulating that electrode over everything else, even food and water.

But apparently this doesn't happen with humans. At least, not with those people. Apparently humans really need some sort of "fulfilment", a conclusion, maybe a storyline, or perhaps indeed suffering. They need something extra, just stimulating the pleasure centre doesn't seem to do the trick, at least not for very long. I dunno what exactly that something extra must be, maybe it's related to the same discussion in the other thread. But calling it "freedom" sounds really trite in this context, probably not it.

We need challenges and accomplishment. Challenge is the brain's aphrodisiac; it's literally what makes us learn. Challenge and new situations. Accomplishment is overcoming challenge and it stimulates our reward center. This is why people on unemployment often become depressed and apathetic; take away people's challenges and goals, and their brain and eventually will to live just sort of goes dormant. This is also why people in college are (usually) smarter than people ten years after college, and why going back to school makes you smarter; stimulation and challenge. Hardship is a type of challenge, but extended hardship also causes depression and apathy because people feel or become helpless.

One of the reasons I can't agree that suffering is necessary for happiness is that it goes directly contrary to pretty much all recent brain research on happiness. At least if you're talking about actual suffering, and not challenge, frustration, discomfort, inconvenience, or disappointment.

In fact, suffering often leads to depression, drug addiction, and destructive behavior. Prolonged suffering, especially in childhood, causes permanent changes in the brain structure that make people less able to be happy even after their environment has changed to one which is conducive to happiness.

[Elder Iptuous]

interesting info, Trip.  imma have to look into that later.
Good points, Nigel.

[P3nT4gR4m]

I think that my definition of suffering is very different from yours. I don't rank inconvenience, disappointment, or low-level discomfort as suffering at all. See, to me being hungry isn't suffering, it's just a biological function. But being hungry isn't the same as going hungry. Going hungry is suffering. But you don't ever have to experience chronic hunger or starvation in order to appreciate a good meal. You don't ever have to be raped to appreciate good sex, or be beat up to appreciate cuddling.

I do think people need to work, to strive, to struggle, in order to be, overall, happy people. They need to experience inconvenience and disappointment and not always get what they want. I don't think they need to suffer.

Yeah we definitely have a different definition. Suffering to me is feeling bad. It's a sliding scale from mild hay fever at one end to extreme torture at the other. Is it accurate to say that you don't count it as suffering until it reaches a certain level or criteria?

[Triple Zero]

is that strictly true?
isn't happiness just a brain state?  just chemicals? (not to take 'just' as a minimizing modifier)

If we assume consciousness and memory and mind and all that reside exclusively in our brain, then of course by definition it needs to be "a brain state". But not a very simple one, not really.

There's serotonine levels, but afaik those just make you feel like everything's OK and be complacent, not happiness.

Then there's the pleasure centre in your brain and according to reports from idiots that actually did it and put an electrode there, it's like having sex but never reaching orgasm. Pleasurable, but not very fulfilling, and after a while, very frustrating.

Yet when you put such an electrode in a monkey (or was it mice, I forget), they'll keep stimulating that electrode over everything else, even food and water.

But apparently this doesn't happen with humans. At least, not with those people. Apparently humans really need some sort of "fulfilment", a conclusion, maybe a storyline, or perhaps indeed suffering. They need something extra, just stimulating the pleasure centre doesn't seem to do the trick, at least not for very long. I dunno what exactly that something extra must be, maybe it's related to the same discussion in the other thread. But calling it "freedom" sounds really trite in this context, probably not it.

We need challenges and accomplishment. Challenge is the brain's aphrodisiac; it's literally what makes us learn. Challenge and new situations. Accomplishment is overcoming challenge and it stimulates our reward center. This is why people on unemployment often become depressed and apathetic; take away people's challenges and goals, and their brain and eventually will to live just sort of goes dormant. This is also why people in college are (usually) smarter than people ten years after college, and why going back to school makes you smarter; stimulation and challenge. Hardship is a type of challenge, but extended hardship also causes depression and apathy because people feel or become helpless.

Thank you. I was searching for words and challenge and accomplishment seems to fit the picture perfectly!

One of the reasons I can't agree that suffering is necessary for happiness is that it goes directly contrary to pretty much all recent brain research on happiness. At least if you're talking about actual suffering, and not challenge, frustration, discomfort, inconvenience, or disappointment.

This is not very meaningful as long as you won't draw a line between discomfort and "actual suffering", especially given the wildly varying perceptions of the two mentioned ITT.

And I'm not saying this just to be pedantic, but if [according to brain research] "actual suffering" leads to depression and addiction and destructiveness, while "challenge, frustration, discomfort, inconvenience, or disappointment" are [in some sense] necessary for really enjoying pleasure and feeling happiness, that's two nearly opposite outcomes, that means there has to be a line, right?

Prolonged suffering, especially in childhood, causes permanent changes in the brain structure that make people less able to be happy even after their environment has changed to one which is conducive to happiness.

While interesting [especially how permanent those changes exactly are], I think these effects are happening on a very different timescale than we've been discussing up to now ITT.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think that my definition of suffering is very different from yours. I don't rank inconvenience, disappointment, or low-level discomfort as suffering at all. See, to me being hungry isn't suffering, it's just a biological function. But being hungry isn't the same as going hungry. Going hungry is suffering. But you don't ever have to experience chronic hunger or starvation in order to appreciate a good meal. You don't ever have to be raped to appreciate good sex, or be beat up to appreciate cuddling.

I do think people need to work, to strive, to struggle, in order to be, overall, happy people. They need to experience inconvenience and disappointment and not always get what they want. I don't think they need to suffer.

Yeah we definitely have a different definition. Suffering to me is feeling bad. It's a sliding scale from mild hay fever at one end to extreme torture at the other. Is it accurate to say that you don't count it as suffering until it reaches a certain level or criteria?

I don't really count it as suffering if one of those other words I used; inconvenience, frustration, discomfort, annoyance, etc. is a more accurate description. Suffering is a word that means physical or, more commonly, mental pain. Hay fever is not really "pain" per se, and certainly not mental pain, and is also already better described as "uncomfortable" and "annoying". Things can feel bad or unpleasant without causing mental pain and anguish.

[P3nT4gR4m]

So is there a better word we can use here? One that would encompass all extremes? Suckage maybe? I mean physical and mental pain aint a trigger criteria for me. It'd have to be a level of pain that made me think i was suffering but pain is a sliding scale. Cracked ribs and torn muscles aren't suffering IMO, they're just things that happen when I'm out having fun. Pain is more an annoyance than real suffering if we're using your definition, whereas I'd class it as low-level suffering, discomfort or annoyance Which may become high level suffering depending on how sore it was.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Ooooh, I think I might have it. Suffering is when it's more than you can handle?

[Elder Iptuous]

Ooooh, I think I might have it. Suffering is when it's more than you can handle?

Long suffering is considered a Primary virtue in some beliefs.  this is the demonstration of ability to handle great suffering over long periods...

[P3nT4gR4m]

Ooooh, I think I might have it. Suffering is when it's more than you can handle?

Long suffering is considered a Primary virtue in some beliefs.  this is the demonstration of ability to handle great suffering over long periods...

It's certainly a primary virtue in my belief. If you can't handle a bit of pain then you're a pussy. Plain and simple. I've been on trips where one guy will start freaking out and go to pieces. These people are invariable fucking useless and only serve to make a tight situation even worse, cos you now have a stupid bag of skin to keep alive, on top of whatever fucked up situation you already have to deal with.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Ooooh, I think I might have it. Suffering is when it's more than you can handle?

That's probably a good definition. If it's more than an annoyance or an inconvenience, and it causes mental anguish, then it is suffering.

I get hurt doing stupid shit all the time, but I don't suffer from it 99% of the time; it doesn't cause anguish. On the other hand, things have happened that did not physically hurt me, but caused anguish, and anguish is mental suffering.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Ooooh, I think I might have it. Suffering is when it's more than you can handle?

Long suffering is considered a Primary virtue in some beliefs.  this is the demonstration of ability to handle great suffering over long periods...

Yes, but "long-suffering" basically means "highly tolerant". The context changes the meaning. "A life of suffering" does not mean the same thing as "long-suffering". There are many, many words in the English language that, despite being the same word, have different meanings in different contexts.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Ooooh, I think I might have it. Suffering is when it's more than you can handle?

That's probably a good definition. If it's more than an annoyance or an inconvenience, and it causes mental anguish, then it is suffering.

I get hurt doing stupid shit all the time, but I don't suffer from it 99% of the time; it doesn't cause anguish. On the other hand, things have happened that did not physically hurt me, but caused anguish, and anguish is mental suffering.

Yup I can get behind that. So maybe instead of saying you need suffering I could have said you need a certain amount of pain/stress, the more the merrier up to a point?