ATTN: LMNO PEE: I IZ TOO STOOPID TO "GET" AUTECHRE

[BabylonHoruv]

But if I say something is art, and you say something isn't, then is it art, or not?

it is to you and it is not to me.

[BabylonHoruv]

But if I say something is art, and you say something isn't, then is it art, or not?

subjectively, it is and it isn't but objectively it isn't until everyone agrees that it is.

by that definition nothing is art

[Epimetheus]

In regards to the mass-produced copies of art thing, I'm actually going to go ahead and use Nigel's definition (and hopefully I understand it correctly), because I think it's the most practical one. As long as the copy is simply a reproduction, it is craft. If a person painted an exact replica of a Van Gogh, it would still be craft.

I think the designers who designed the soupcan (and it's label) might disagree with you.  I know the designers of Levi Jeans would.

a) The design for the can and jeans would be art. The mass-produced objects themselves would have been craftwork.
b) Calling it craft doesn't mean it can't be passionately and skillfully made, and shouldn't be offensive.

[LMNO]

To be fair, it kind of started out that way, too.

IT DID NOT.

I really would like to know what the deal is with this track. Not all of us are musically trained and I was genuinely interested in your opinion on the matter. Ass.

Being able to say "I don't like it because there's no melody" is difficult to do. "Is that the reason I don't care for this? what else is it? Do I really not like it?"

I don't not like it...I don't like it but I'm not 100% able to say I dislike it (I don't think I dislike anything, actually) I don't "get" it. Maybe there's more to it and maybe there isn't. 

I was hoping you could...illuminate me.

I don't trust many semantically inclined, batshit-about-music, smart motherfuckers to tell me the fucking truth and I don't need some PBR-drinking, hornrimmed fuckhead in skinny jeans running around with a 8mm and a membership card to the amateur avant-garde filmmakers club of Mobile, AL to inform me that I don't comprehend that it's about form or some junk unless it's really that. Where am I supposed to go for the skinny on this, eh? Hipster runoff? RIGHT?

RIGHT???

GOD! Don't be such a jerk!

Jerk.

Oh, Lord.  Hipster Runoff.  What a wanker.

Anyway, there isn't really much to "get" about the track, if you take the process of how it was created off the table.

- It lacks structure
- It lacks melody
- It lacks rhythm
- It uses various kinds of digital distortion
- The distortion leads to a lot of piercing high frequencies

So the end result is a track that is both completely unpredictable (which can challenge/please the brain) and also repeatable (by hitting play again).  Which means you can get to a point where you're pretty sure what's coming next, but the amount of information being presented makes it difficult to predict with complete accuracy (which again, challenges/pleases the brain).

Have you heard any of Eno's Music For Airports?  It's similar to the Autechre track in that it is system oriented (various lengths of tape, looped so that they intersect each other at random intervals), and has no melody, rhythm, or structure.  The main difference seems to be that the sounds are soothing rather than abrasive.  Take a listen to the Eno track, and let me know what you think.  We can probably narrow things down from there.

[Mangrove]

I was born with a natural ear and (from what I've been told) perfect pitch (I used to hum the dishwasher, cars and refrigerator as a child)

Not that this adds anything to the discussion. Are you sure about the above?

Generally, absolute pitch implies some or all of the following abilities when done without reference to an external standard:[4]

    Identify by name individual pitches (e.g. A, B, C♯) played on various instruments
    Name the key of a given piece of tonal music just by listening (without reference to an external tone)
    Identify and name all the tones of a given chord or other tonal mass
    Accurately sing a given pitch without an external reference
    Name the pitches of common everyday noises such as car horns


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch

My niece is an opera singer with Perfect (or Absolute pitch). Her choir director uses her voice as a reference to tune the rest of the choir. She can identify any note you play and can reproduce any note you ask her to sing.

Not that this has anything to do with aesthetics, definitions of art etc. But I thought I'd ask.

[Triple Zero]

OK, but you DO enjoy that people get confused and/or upset when you have them listen to stuff like that, right?

I know I would. In fact, I do, it's just that I use technical death metal to achieve that effect rather than asymmetrical electronica.

I used to enjoy that a lot, when I was younger. But after a while, I think I got enough fun out of it

I do still like to play it for people as an example of "really strange music" when it comes up, but that's different.

[Triple Zero]

But if I say something is art, and you say something isn't, then is it art, or not?

If ECH says Grolsch tastes like piss and I tell him that he must have been born with malfunctioning tastebuds, who is right?

[Triple Zero]

To be fair, it kind of started out that way, too.

IT DID NOT.

I really would like to know what the deal is with this track. Not all of us are musically trained and I was genuinely interested in your opinion on the matter. Ass.

Being able to say "I don't like it because there's no melody" is difficult to do. "Is that the reason I don't care for this? what else is it? Do I really not like it?"

I don't not like it...I don't like it but I'm not 100% able to say I dislike it (I don't think I dislike anything, actually) I don't "get" it. Maybe there's more to it and maybe there isn't. 

I was hoping you could...illuminate me.

Well I tried to give my best and most honest and clear explanation as to why somebody could like this track. I like other tracks by AE a lot better, but this one combined with the video is pretty swote (IMO).

I also think LMNO gave his best explanation and really wasn't too much of a jerk about it (though I can imagine the "if you can't explain it" part to be taken that way--though it doesn't bother me)

I hope I helped somehow?

[LMNO]

But if I say something is art, and you say something isn't, then is it art, or not?

If ECH says Grolsch tastes like piss and I tell him that he must have been born with malfunctioning tastebuds, who is right?

ECH, because Grolsch does taste like piss.

[Cain]

Autechre are trolling you. Modern, abstract art is trolling on a mass scale.

Dilemma resolved.

[Triple Zero]

Have you heard any of Eno's Music For Airports?  It's similar to the Autechre track in that it is system oriented (various lengths of tape, looped so that they intersect each other at random intervals), and has no melody, rhythm, or structure.  The main difference seems to be that the sounds are soothing rather than abrasive.  Take a listen to the Eno track, and let me know what you think.  We can probably narrow things down from there.

I didn't like Music For Airports, for some reason (I could give a lengthy explanation, which I'll skip but kinda boils down to there's ambient music that I like a LOT better).

In fact I think I have to say I like this AE track better, if you can compare the two. But then I prefer (in the category of sounding somewhat the same) Squarepusher's Ultravisitor and even more Come on my selector (the latter I will actually dance to) (and incidentally it's also got James Brown breakbeat samples).

But if I say something is art, and you say something isn't, then is it art, or not?

If ECH says Grolsch tastes like piss and I tell him that he must have been born with malfunctioning tastebuds, who is right?

ECH, because Grolsch does taste like piss.

Aha!

In the good tradition of SCIENCE I shall have to revise my hypothesis.

All Americans must have been born with malfunctioning tastebuds.

(Some of them don't even like liquorice!)

[LMNO]

Autechre are trolling you. Modern, abstract art is trolling on a mass scale.

Dilemma resolved.

Thread over.  Cain wins.

[BabylonHoruv]

I'm glad to say I can't offer an opinion on whether or not Grolsch tastes like piss.  I can say it tastes a bit like a skunk smells, but I blame that on it being in green bottles that are not properly protected from the light and i expect it would be better if properly handled.

[East Coast Hustle]

But if I say something is art, and you say something isn't, then is it art, or not?

If ECH says Grolsch tastes like piss and I tell him that he must have been born with malfunctioning tastebuds, who is right?

(Since I intend to ignore everything BH ever says here)

In all fairness, I can't categorically say that Grolsch tastes like skunk piss because I've never had it in Europe. I don't know if it's imported directly or brewed here under license, but I do know that being in a green bottle doesn't help its cause.

I also know that the Heineken that you buy in the states is putrid crap whereas the Heineken you get in the islands is delicious nectar of the gods.

In short, whenever I finally make my way over to the old world, Trip, I will give you every opportunity to change my mind.

[Epimetheus]

But if I say something is art, and you say something isn't, then is it art, or not?

That makes me imagine an in-between state twixt thinking an artwork is good and thinking it's bad - call it aesthetic-agnostic. "There is not enough information to me to make a claim that this artwork is good or that it's bad, although I am open to further evidence."
And then the strong aesthetic-agnostic would claim it will never be possible for us to know whether art is good or bad.