I read a post by 000 and now I want to talk about literacy

[Luna]

They really aren't expected to read, read.  At least, my daughter wasn't.  They'll learn words and numbers in pre-school.  But they aren't really expected to be able to crack open a book and read it from cover to cover.  But they definitely will benefit by having some beginning basics for reading when they arrive to K. 

I started school, got handed "Dick and Jane," flipped through it, and went back to the Reader's Digest Condensed version of "Jaws" I was in the middle of reading.  My teacher didn't believe I was reading it, until she had me read it to her.

After that,, the rest of the class did Dick and Jane, and I worked from a fifth grade book.

[trippinprincezz13]

No, kids aren't expected to read by kindergarten, I think. I'm pretty sure my sister didn't just on the count of my mom working and being very busy with 3 children at that point to really have been able to focus on teaching her. That doesn't make her stupid, because once she learned, she started reading books constantly and still does.

Not every student has the benefit of being taught by their parents before they enter school.

Yea, that is true. I certainly didn't mean to imply that she or anyone else in the same boat was stupid for it. I just figured having at least a base idea of it (similar to what RWHN referenced) was required, or at least ideal. But I started out in Catholic school and didn't go to Pre-K, so there's probably some disparity there. I also remember learning multiplication in 5th or 6th grade public classes, when I swear we'd done that in 2nd or 3rd grade. Maybe we were just reviewing the basics before moving onto more complicated stuff - too long ago to remember. But a lot of it does fall back to having my mom at home able to teach us too.

As for cursive, I definitely started learning cursive in 1st grade. D'Nealian. Remember D'Nealian? LOL. I remember referring to it as D'Nealian to my parents and they were like, "What? No, honey, that's SCRIPT or CURSIVE." When I was in 5th grade we switched to Zaner-Bloser, and everything had to be in cursive. EVERYTHING. I attribute my excellent handwriting to going to Catholic school, because apparently when everyone sees how I write, they always ask if I went to Catholic school. 

heh, while the word D'Nealian strikes an "I've heard of that" part of my brain, I forget whether I heard at school or at home. It is possible we did "officially" learn cursive later on in 1st grade, but I remember also being admonished because the Z, Q and maybe a few other letters from the workbook I was learning from (pink for print and purple for cursive) were slightly different than the version they would be teaching. Nevermind a pat on the shoulder for taking the initiative and *gasp* learning on my own

[Suu]

I definitely covered multiplication and division in 3rd grade. I remember that because we had these awful records (yes, records) that played songs of the times tables.

[Jenne]

Placid D, I'm a former ESL teacher...I actually rate the TOEFL iBT Speaking for ETS and manage those who do as well.

I think using realia like newspapers, magazines, TV commercials, etc. is a great way to go when teaching a second language.  I don't know if you're teaching grammar or conversation (sounds like conversation), but the practical approach is awesome if you're teaching Adult Ed.  If it's more collegiate, I'd go the curricular route with excerpts of actual texts from high school or college texts books.  Content-based teaching is what they taught us in our TESL classes at UCLA, and it seems to grab university students better when you give them something other than cold content that has no basis in the real world.  The idea behind content-based instruction is that you give the student something to hang on to meaningwise so that the grammar just falls into place, as does the writing style.  Expository writing in English is so very very routinized, but its formulaic nature is not always easily grasped when the student has to manufacture content along with it.  The idea I guess is to also give them the tools with which to write in their other classes, too--so if they're writing on history in their ESL class, then in their actual history class, it'll be easier for them to apply what they learned grammar and style-wise.

You may know all this already, sorry if I'm repeating shit you already know.

And I haven't taught in 10 years, so the teaching rhetoric has probably evolved since then.

[Placid Dingo]

Placid D, I'm a former ESL teacher...I actually rate the TOEFL iBT Speaking for ETS and manage those who do as well.

I think using realia like newspapers, magazines, TV commercials, etc. is a great way to go when teaching a second language.  I don't know if you're teaching grammar or conversation (sounds like conversation), but the practical approach is awesome if you're teaching Adult Ed.  If it's more collegiate, I'd go the curricular route with excerpts of actual texts from high school or college texts books.  Content-based teaching is what they taught us in our TESL classes at UCLA, and it seems to grab university students better when you give them something other than cold content that has no basis in the real world.  The idea behind content-based instruction is that you give the student something to hang on to meaningwise so that the grammar just falls into place, as does the writing style.  Expository writing in English is so very very routinized, but its formulaic nature is not always easily grasped when the student has to manufacture content along with it.  The idea I guess is to also give them the tools with which to write in their other classes, too--so if they're writing on history in their ESL class, then in their actual history class, it'll be easier for them to apply what they learned grammar and style-wise.

You may know all this already, sorry if I'm repeating shit you already know.

And I haven't taught in 10 years, so the teaching rhetoric has probably evolved since then.

Quite the opposite Jeanne; my main job is Primrary school Japanese. I teach my ESL for a restaurant with Chinese employees so anything is helpful. Actually if you gave a chance to go over that first handful of acronyms that would be appreciated.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

My parents didn't know I could read until my surprised kindergarten teacher told them. I remember noticing the small point size directions at the bottom of the page and thinking, "that's an odd place to put it." Around the same time I was trying to decipher Charles Dickens, where I could understand a lot but couldn't quite put it all together.

I also recall this series of timed reading tests in 1st grade where you openly compete with other kids in the class. Basically, it was a folder with the instructions and story on the front pages and a bunch of questions in the back two pages. As you finished a set of 5 or so in each level you go up to a harder level and there must of been 15 or more levels. My scrawny, geeky buddy was my only competition and he always just trailed me a little bit. We burned through the entire series in battle mode -- flashing each other aggressive looks right after we finished a test. It was great fun. Meanwhile we'd have sleepovers where we'd crawl headfirst into our sleeping bags, inching around his house blindly as "alien worms."

He had the nastiest sense of humor, even at that age. I googled his ass a year ago and it's the same gross out humor, that's how I knew for sure it was him. Apparently he's an engineer and moved to Kentucky for work. Clever little bastard.

[Jenne]

Placid D, I'm a former ESL teacher...I actually rate the TOEFL iBT Speaking for ETS and manage those who do as well.

I think using realia like newspapers, magazines, TV commercials, etc. is a great way to go when teaching a second language.  I don't know if you're teaching grammar or conversation (sounds like conversation), but the practical approach is awesome if you're teaching Adult Ed.  If it's more collegiate, I'd go the curricular route with excerpts of actual texts from high school or college texts books.  Content-based teaching is what they taught us in our TESL classes at UCLA, and it seems to grab university students better when you give them something other than cold content that has no basis in the real world.  The idea behind content-based instruction is that you give the student something to hang on to meaningwise so that the grammar just falls into place, as does the writing style.  Expository writing in English is so very very routinized, but its formulaic nature is not always easily grasped when the student has to manufacture content along with it.  The idea I guess is to also give them the tools with which to write in their other classes, too--so if they're writing on history in their ESL class, then in their actual history class, it'll be easier for them to apply what they learned grammar and style-wise.

You may know all this already, sorry if I'm repeating shit you already know.

And I haven't taught in 10 years, so the teaching rhetoric has probably evolved since then.

Quite the opposite Jeanne; my main job is Primrary school Japanese. I teach my ESL for a restaurant with Chinese employees so anything is helpful. Actually if you gave a chance to go over that first handful of acronyms that would be appreciated.

Yes, that's adult school for your ESL then.  English as a Second Language--the "T" in TESL is "TEACHING English as a Second Language."

EFL is "English as a Foreign Language," and it's usually English instruction for folks in their own countries.  This you may already know.

The TOEFL is "Test of English as a Foreign Language," used in writing and speaking for those whose first language is not English, and various universities and employers require it for their employees from overseas.  I rate the "Speaking" portion of it, and have for the better part of 7 years.  I also manage/train/guide those who rate it (score it) as well.

It seems you're a language teacher by profession, just not English--correct?  You teach Japanese as a foreign language--I suppose?  That's pretty cool.  Let me know if you have any questions re: Adult Ed vs. ESL in general.  As I said above, Adult Ed is very close to being "business English" in that it's practical and has vocabulary that is generally accessible to everyday life.  Basically, you teach them the English they need to know to get through their day.

I like role-playing for this very reason.  A set script that can be written up and that they practice.  This way you can get at pronunciation and grammar issues right there on the spot so their errors don't concretize.  That's the hardest part sometimes of the more "advanced" ESL or EFL student--breaking down those concretized errors.

[Jenne]

Oh, and ETS is Educational Testing Service...they rate the TOEFL, the GRE, the SAT...etc.

[Placid Dingo]

I'm onholidays for a few days coming up but when I get back we might start some script work.