Author Topic: Luka Magnotta : Everything is A Dream  (Read 63077 times)

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Re: Luka Magnotta : Everything is A Dream
« Reply #165 on: June 06, 2012, 01:36:56 pm »
A thought: If Luka can't help it, if his sociopathy/psychopathy is permanent (as has been suggested upthread), then torturing/making him uncomfortable would serve no purpose.  The "punishment" has no meaning.  At that point, it becomes mere sadism.

There's also what seems to be an unspoken, underlying current of, "All you have to do is abandon all sense of morality and humanity; then you can live a comfortable, care free life once you're caught!"  Which is a bit of a skewed perspective.

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Re: Luka Magnotta : Everything is A Dream
« Reply #166 on: June 06, 2012, 02:09:12 pm »
Quote from: navkat
I don't think "remanded to a treatment facility" should equate to a situation where "everybody KNOWS he ain't getting better" so instead of sending him to a regular prison, old boy gets hooked up for life in the hospital where no one's allowed to subject him to anything unkind or encroach on his space and if he misbehaves, instead of five guards with riot gear, a day in solitary and a tribunal that tacks on 6 months, he gets another 5mg diazepam, loss of TV time and an an immediate floor visit from the doc to "talk about his behaviour."

Wait, what?

That's not a "regular prison" that's the sick excuse for "justified" slavery that you got in the USA.

You know, the prison system famous for memes such as "federal assrape prison" and "you dropped the soap".

I'm just going to imagine that you did NOT just argue that if someone criminally insane is put in a mental institution they should at least be getting it as bad, get the same fucked up treatment as two out of every hundred US citizens are currently experiencing? Because otherwise ... it's not fair? Again, revenge much? I wouldn't be surprised if a few years in a US prison doesn't actually make people more likely to commit crimes when they return to society.



Apart from that, you also seem to be arguing that it's okay to do medical experiments on the insane without their consent, given that the crime they perpetrated is severe enough. Am I getting that right? Because in this hypothetical search for a cure for sociopathy, I'm assuming he doesn't get a choice in whether he wants to participate in the (experimental or not) treatment?

I'm all for offering them the choice to participate in such programs (preferably tested ones, not experimental), but to make it mandatory as part of the punishment, again, is completely unethical. It's basically equivalent to corporal punishment (except it's partially it's mental).

American ex-convicts are pretty likely to go back to jail at some point. It's not only what happens to them on the inside, it's often also what happened to them in the years leading up to the incarceration, plus I imagine it's hard to get hired anywhere after doing time. Once a criminal, always a criminal, you know? So what do you do for work when everyone thinks you're still a criminal. Well, stealing and dealing probably. Then you're back in jail. "Told you that guy was a criminal," they say then, "can't stay out of trouble."
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Re: Luka Magnotta : Everything is A Dream
« Reply #167 on: June 06, 2012, 02:10:06 pm »
The fucked up problem is that YOU have a conscience and YOU who are a contribution to society, putting well-raised children into the world would lose your kids and since YOU work a real job and contribute, YOU would have a hell of a time getting them back while you work and pay for your own legal, etc.

SHE will do six months in Metro and get anger-management classes offered by some Meaher's pet contracted Social service, paid for by tax dollars because she's indigent and be assigned an attorney by DHR to get her kids back.

Are you upset that she's being treated well, that you're being treated poorly, or that someone you look down on is being treated better than you?  May not be what you intended, but comes off as "as long as there's someone with even less rights and dignity than me."  Like, you're okay with living in a violent, cruel society, so long as the bad stuff happens to the right people.

It's like the way people used to (and sometimes still do) carry on about people on welfare:

"I SAW THAT WELFARE SLUG WITH HER KIDS AT MCDONALDS AND THEY WERE EATING WITH MY TAX DOLLARS, I WORK 60 HOURS A WEEK AND I CAN'T AFFORD TO TAKE MY KIDS TO MCDONALDS!" These things end up with no welfare for anybody who needs it, of course. Including people who said things like that and are no longer working.

Welfare cuts suck, but they're a pretty cheap lesson compared to brutalizing prisoners.

Difference is, the people who say things like that are assuming that the Black family they're looking at in McDonalds must naturally be on welfare.
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Re: Luka Magnotta : Everything is A Dream
« Reply #168 on: June 06, 2012, 02:13:09 pm »
A thought: If Luka can't help it, if his sociopathy/psychopathy is permanent (as has been suggested upthread), then torturing/making him uncomfortable would serve no purpose.  The "punishment" has no meaning.  At that point, it becomes mere sadism.

There's also what seems to be an unspoken, underlying current of, "All you have to do is abandon all sense of morality and humanity; then you can live a comfortable, care free life once you're caught!"  Which is a bit of a skewed perspective.

Work sucks, but that doesn't mean no work=leisure time all the time. Plus, not "having" to work for the rest of your life is generally a bad thing. People need stuff to keep their minds occupied.
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Re: Luka Magnotta : Everything is A Dream
« Reply #169 on: June 06, 2012, 02:17:59 pm »
This is America™.  We must do monstrous things to deal with abberations, nuisances, and other society-threatening events.  Reasoned, measured responses are for Euro-sissies and other weakings.  Here, we should arrange an "accident" for accused killers, or pump them full of drugs to see what happens.  Mole hills are in fact mountains, and those mountains must be crushed before they avalanche onto our toes and fuck up our pedicures.

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Re: Luka Magnotta : Everything is A Dream
« Reply #170 on: June 06, 2012, 02:20:13 pm »
A thought: If Luka can't help it, if his sociopathy/psychopathy is permanent (as has been suggested upthread), then torturing/making him uncomfortable would serve no purpose.  The "punishment" has no meaning.  At that point, it becomes mere sadism.

There's also what seems to be an unspoken, underlying current of, "All you have to do is abandon all sense of morality and humanity; then you can live a comfortable, care free life once you're caught!"  Which is a bit of a skewed perspective.

Work sucks, but that doesn't mean no work=leisure time all the time. Plus, not "having" to work for the rest of your life is generally a bad thing. People need stuff to keep their minds occupied.

With the exception of Squeaky Fromme, but there's an exception to every rule.

Fact is, we locked up Manson, and the most he's done since is become some dude's GF and occasionally he embarrasses himself at parole hearings.


" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Luka Magnotta : Everything is A Dream
« Reply #171 on: June 06, 2012, 02:29:57 pm »
A thought: If Luka can't help it, if his sociopathy/psychopathy is permanent (as has been suggested upthread), then torturing/making him uncomfortable would serve no purpose.  The "punishment" has no meaning.  At that point, it becomes mere sadism.

There's also what seems to be an unspoken, underlying current of, "All you have to do is abandon all sense of morality and humanity; then you can live a comfortable, care free life once you're caught!"  Which is a bit of a skewed perspective.

Work sucks, but that doesn't mean no work=leisure time all the time. Plus, not "having" to work for the rest of your life is generally a bad thing. People need stuff to keep their minds occupied.

With the exception of Squeaky Fromme, but there's an exception to every rule.

Fact is, we locked up Manson, and the most he's done since is become some dude's GF and occasionally he embarrasses himself at parole hearings.

Which hardly seems like an average vacation from work.

Americans are weird people. They all love their rights and democracy and Constitution, but only when it applies to them. Cruel and unusual punishment? Fuck that. Assholes deserve cruel and unusual punishment. They're horrible people. Maybe we can lynch them while they're awaiting trial. We need good, swift justice without all that slow and unnecessary court stuff.
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Re: Luka Magnotta : Everything is A Dream
« Reply #172 on: June 06, 2012, 02:32:08 pm »
A thought: If Luka can't help it, if his sociopathy/psychopathy is permanent (as has been suggested upthread), then torturing/making him uncomfortable would serve no purpose.  The "punishment" has no meaning.  At that point, it becomes mere sadism.

There's also what seems to be an unspoken, underlying current of, "All you have to do is abandon all sense of morality and humanity; then you can live a comfortable, care free life once you're caught!"  Which is a bit of a skewed perspective.

Work sucks, but that doesn't mean no work=leisure time all the time. Plus, not "having" to work for the rest of your life is generally a bad thing. People need stuff to keep their minds occupied.

With the exception of Squeaky Fromme, but there's an exception to every rule.

Fact is, we locked up Manson, and the most he's done since is become some dude's GF and occasionally he embarrasses himself at parole hearings.

Which hardly seems like an average vacation from work.

Americans are weird people. They all love their rights and democracy and Constitution, but only when it applies to them. Cruel and unusual punishment? Fuck that. Assholes deserve cruel and unusual punishment. They're horrible people. Maybe we can lynch them while they're awaiting trial. We need good, swift justice without all that slow and unnecessary court stuff.

Well, it's every American's right...DUTY...to show just how FUCKING OUTRAGED THEY ARE, so it is required that people sound off with calls for torture and extra-judicial punishments.
" It's just that Depeche Mode were a bunch of optimistic loveburgers."
- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
- TGRR, raising the bar at work.

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Re: Luka Magnotta : Everything is A Dream
« Reply #173 on: June 06, 2012, 02:42:03 pm »
TGRR, your post has OUTRAGED me! 


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Re: Luka Magnotta : Everything is A Dream
« Reply #174 on: June 06, 2012, 02:42:53 pm »
A thought: If Luka can't help it, if his sociopathy/psychopathy is permanent (as has been suggested upthread), then torturing/making him uncomfortable would serve no purpose.  The "punishment" has no meaning.  At that point, it becomes mere sadism.

There's also what seems to be an unspoken, underlying current of, "All you have to do is abandon all sense of morality and humanity; then you can live a comfortable, care free life once you're caught!"  Which is a bit of a skewed perspective.

Work sucks, but that doesn't mean no work=leisure time all the time. Plus, not "having" to work for the rest of your life is generally a bad thing. People need stuff to keep their minds occupied.

With the exception of Squeaky Fromme, but there's an exception to every rule.

Fact is, we locked up Manson, and the most he's done since is become some dude's GF and occasionally he embarrasses himself at parole hearings.

Which hardly seems like an average vacation from work.

Americans are weird people. They all love their rights and democracy and Constitution, but only when it applies to them. Cruel and unusual punishment? Fuck that. Assholes deserve cruel and unusual punishment. They're horrible people. Maybe we can lynch them while they're awaiting trial. We need good, swift justice without all that slow and unnecessary court stuff.

Well, it's every American's right...DUTY...to show just how FUCKING OUTRAGED THEY ARE, so it is required that people sound off with calls for torture and extra-judicial punishments.

Everything makes sense now. This extends to everything. Even your order at McDonalds. Which is why you occasionally get people who flip out and assault the poor bastards working there. Which gets on the news. Which makes people complain about how this country's going down the crapper. Then it's their turn to be that asshole. Then it's someone else's turn. And every time, they shake their head and make assumptions about the person. They build up a simplified narrative of their life. Then if it comes out that the person is quite similar to them they ignore it and say that some people are just assholes/it's this country going town the crapper that made them snap like that.
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Re: Luka Magnotta : Everything is A Dream
« Reply #175 on: June 06, 2012, 03:40:26 pm »
Quote from: navkat
I don't think "remanded to a treatment facility" should equate to a situation where "everybody KNOWS he ain't getting better" so instead of sending him to a regular prison, old boy gets hooked up for life in the hospital where no one's allowed to subject him to anything unkind or encroach on his space and if he misbehaves, instead of five guards with riot gear, a day in solitary and a tribunal that tacks on 6 months, he gets another 5mg diazepam, loss of TV time and an an immediate floor visit from the doc to "talk about his behaviour."

Wait, what?

That's not a "regular prison" that's the sick excuse for "justified" slavery that you got in the USA.

You know, the prison system famous for memes such as "federal assrape prison" and "you dropped the soap".

I'm just going to imagine that you did NOT just argue that if someone criminally insane is put in a mental institution they should at least be getting it as bad, get the same fucked up treatment as two out of every hundred US citizens are currently experiencing? Because otherwise ... it's not fair? Again, revenge much? I wouldn't be surprised if a few years in a US prison doesn't actually make people more likely to commit crimes when they return to society.



Apart from that, you also seem to be arguing that it's okay to do medical experiments on the insane without their consent, given that the crime they perpetrated is severe enough. Am I getting that right? Because in this hypothetical search for a cure for sociopathy, I'm assuming he doesn't get a choice in whether he wants to participate in the (experimental or not) treatment?

I'm all for offering them the choice to participate in such programs (preferably tested ones, not experimental), but to make it mandatory as part of the punishment, again, is completely unethical. It's basically equivalent to corporal punishment (except it's partially it's mental).

American ex-convicts are pretty likely to go back to jail at some point. It's not only what happens to them on the inside, it's often also what happened to them in the years leading up to the incarceration, plus I imagine it's hard to get hired anywhere after doing time. Once a criminal, always a criminal, you know? So what do you do for work when everyone thinks you're still a criminal. Well, stealing and dealing probably. Then you're back in jail. "Told you that guy was a criminal," they say then, "can't stay out of trouble."

Yup; once they become institutionalized as criminals there's an incredibly high rate of recidivism. You see this particularly with drug crimes, where, once labeled a felon, many opportunities are stripped from the ex-convict in terms of jobs, living arrangements, educational future, and they return to dealing drugs in order to survive. A second offense receives a harsher penalty than the first, etc. and eventually, a kid with a quarter ounce of pot in a baggie becomes a lifer thanks to three strikes and other "tough on crime" laws.
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Re: Luka Magnotta : Everything is A Dream
« Reply #176 on: June 06, 2012, 04:10:06 pm »
Quote from: navkat
I don't think "remanded to a treatment facility" should equate to a situation where "everybody KNOWS he ain't getting better" so instead of sending him to a regular prison, old boy gets hooked up for life in the hospital where no one's allowed to subject him to anything unkind or encroach on his space and if he misbehaves, instead of five guards with riot gear, a day in solitary and a tribunal that tacks on 6 months, he gets another 5mg diazepam, loss of TV time and an an immediate floor visit from the doc to "talk about his behaviour."

Wait, what?

That's not a "regular prison" that's the sick excuse for "justified" slavery that you got in the USA.

You know, the prison system famous for memes such as "federal assrape prison" and "you dropped the soap".

I'm just going to imagine that you did NOT just argue that if someone criminally insane is put in a mental institution they should at least be getting it as bad, get the same fucked up treatment as two out of every hundred US citizens are currently experiencing? Because otherwise ... it's not fair? Again, revenge much? I wouldn't be surprised if a few years in a US prison doesn't actually make people more likely to commit crimes when they return to society.



Apart from that, you also seem to be arguing that it's okay to do medical experiments on the insane without their consent, given that the crime they perpetrated is severe enough. Am I getting that right? Because in this hypothetical search for a cure for sociopathy, I'm assuming he doesn't get a choice in whether he wants to participate in the (experimental or not) treatment?

I'm all for offering them the choice to participate in such programs (preferably tested ones, not experimental), but to make it mandatory as part of the punishment, again, is completely unethical. It's basically equivalent to corporal punishment (except it's partially it's mental).

American ex-convicts are pretty likely to go back to jail at some point. It's not only what happens to them on the inside, it's often also what happened to them in the years leading up to the incarceration, plus I imagine it's hard to get hired anywhere after doing time. Once a criminal, always a criminal, you know? So what do you do for work when everyone thinks you're still a criminal. Well, stealing and dealing probably. Then you're back in jail. "Told you that guy was a criminal," they say then, "can't stay out of trouble."

Yup; once they become institutionalized as criminals there's an incredibly high rate of recidivism. You see this particularly with drug crimes, where, once labeled a felon, many opportunities are stripped from the ex-convict in terms of jobs, living arrangements, educational future, and they return to dealing drugs in order to survive. A second offense receives a harsher penalty than the first, etc. and eventually, a kid with a quarter ounce of pot in a baggie becomes a lifer thanks to three strikes and other "tough on crime" laws.

I think that it's funny that a job application asks "have you ever been convicted of a felony?" followed by "answering yes will have no effect on your chances of employment." Oh? Then why the fuck are you asking?
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Re: Luka Magnotta : Everything is A Dream
« Reply #177 on: June 06, 2012, 04:46:30 pm »
Navkat, in case it isn't clear yet, the things you proposed--sleep deprivation, lying to the patient--these are in fact forms of torture.  They are psychologically torturous.  It's appalling that you don't think they are torture.

I can't decide if I agree with you that it's actual torture (although a mild form at the level I have in my head) and I'm saying "So be it. It's a necessary evil

Stopped reading here. Nav, go find some help, deal with your issues, do what you gotta do, lady. Come talk to me again when you're doing better.

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Re: Luka Magnotta : Everything is A Dream
« Reply #178 on: June 06, 2012, 05:01:40 pm »
Navkat, in case it isn't clear yet, the things you proposed--sleep deprivation, lying to the patient--these are in fact forms of torture.  They are psychologically torturous.  It's appalling that you don't think they are torture.

I can't decide if I agree with you that it's actual torture (although a mild form at the level I have in my head) and I'm saying "So be it. It's a necessary evil in this case."

 :kingmeh:
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- TGRR, shaming himself forever, 7/8/2017

 "Billy, when I say that ethics is our number one priority and safety is also our number one priority, you should take that to mean exactly what I said. Also quality. That's our number one priority as well. Don't look at me that way, you're in the corporate world now and this is how it works."
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Re: Luka Magnotta : Everything is A Dream
« Reply #179 on: June 06, 2012, 08:33:53 pm »
BH has already said (in this thread I think), have not seen, will not see, does not like 'real' stuff.

Also the kitten video I'm pretty sure has been alluded to but is not on the Internet.

BH is a snuff freak.  This is the kind of shit that gets him off.

When it's imaginary.

I don't like real, just like furries don't like fucking real animals.

That actually makes it a little easier to grasp. Also (not that I'm the poster child for attracting well-adjusted men) but I had a boyfriend who fantasized about being a vampire and going through the vampire death and rebirth process and who romanticized making love to and like a vampire. He was like, obsessed with it. Bought me frilly victorian-looking shirts and liked me to wear dark lipstick and pale makeup. Drank Tawny Port out of bombastically gaudy goblets and offered me sips with this really intense, undead look on his face. Then, Oliver Stone's The Doors movie came out and he was suddenly obsessed with writing poetry and calling me "Pam."

But you have said some things that do (especially since watching that hot mess, ugh!) give me pause. At one point, you said something that gave me the impression that you were sending out a ping to guage if I was open to your proclivities too which is a resounding NO. But it's not the fact that you did it, it was the way you did it. The segue you jumped on was related to the killing of people in political activism circumstances which is a little too realistic of a possibility of happening in real life to be used as an appropriate way to test for something strictly fantasy, follow?

If you're really telling the truth that the idea of real death is repugnant to you while some romanticized, play-acting death scene is what's going on in your head, that sounds a little odd and silly but likely non-threatening. But I think it's safe to say that the majority of people here are uncomfortable with your fetish (or in my case, find it a little icky) so here's probably a not good place to ever, ever send out a signal flare.

I apologize if you thought I was sending out a signal flare.  I may have done so without meaning to, you seem like a pretty cool girl and you like fucked up guys, but it wasn't intentional and if I did do it unintentionally I apologize profusely.  My plate is actually quite full so if you had responded positively I would have been in an awkward position anyway.

You're a special case, Babylon.  You are offensive even when you don't post.

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