Luka Magnotta : Everything is A Dream

[navkat]

That video, "1 lunatic, 1 ice pick" may not be of Luka Magnotta, or his victim.  I'm getting some serious date discrepancies.

I'm also getting reports of Luka being in with the scientologists, of being a satanist, a white nationalist forced to flee Canada, of having a wife and child in Europe, of links to a South African smuggling group and to the Russian mafia. 

Luka claims he has cyberstalkers who post nonsense about him all over the web, but as far as I can tell, based on redditers and anonymous members who followed him before the most recent events, those accounts were registered by him, and a lot of fake accounts on Youtube who comment on his videos, both defending and attacking him, also belong to him.

Either way, there is likely more to this case than meets the eye.  I am going to go investigating.

I'll be curious to see what you find. I vaguely remember doing some digging when he first posted here, and being very creeped out by him.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able, as of yet, to dig up anything that hasn't already been reported on.

What I find questionable is that Luka is repsonsible for all of his internet self-promotion.  Sure, it's possible, but it is it probable?  We're talking about at least 15 different Youtube accounts, and postings on hundreds of internet forums.  I've seen very little in the way of verification that he is in fact the one who posted all of these things.

I have acquired footage of the murder, as well, but I've only watched some very brief scenes.  Not enough to verify if it is him in the video.  A lot was made of his modelling past, but his facial features are pretty distinct, if there is a clear shot in the video, I am fairly certain, even with the terrible quality, that it would be easy to tell if it was him or not.

I just hate the feeling of being forced to live in some lunatic's cheap knock-off of Se7en.

I'll say if the things I said in my first post on the issue aren't of concern or importance for you to experience, don't do it. It's really hard to absorb and I had to look away for a lot of it and pause it a lot and pace the floor and...repeat.

I think it's probable that it is his video and possible it's not. Especially given the fact that 1. we know the body parts he sent out belonged to Jun Lin and 2. at the very least, the still shot which accompanied the video of the video victim's face looks very much like Jun Lin's photos...though far less distinctive feature-wise than Magnotta.

That said, I believe Magnotta will admit it. I concur that one of Magnotta's motives and driving desires is attention. It's totally conceivable to me that he created a bunch of accounts simply to pre-hype his film. This isn't an unheard of strategy. Consider the Jose Girah Macedo online poker scam from (i think) last year.

Add to this the fact that there was no confirmed copy of the film viewed by any outsider prior to 25 May. The gore site admin says only that it was circulating on Tor for a while before he got hold of it himself. For a person whose site is centered around collecting obscure, gore-related material, I find it difficult to believe it took him ten days to find a working link on Tor if the links were truly connected to a real video and not dead links created to hype this.

I think Magnotta knew he'd have to GTFO of Dodge as soon as the deed was done and I'd be willing to bet the kitten thing was a "dry run" to guage how many days it would take before a macabre-type video reached a target number of views and whether or not it would become viral enough that others would have copied it and mirrored it before YT took it down. I mean, I've had some time to sit and be plagued by thoughts about this guy and to try to figure him out and that's what my gut is telling me.

The video, from the parts I watched seems cut and spliced a lot. I'm willing to bet there are no identifying shots of his face in it on purpose. I think he did that with the deliberate intent of leaving himself the option to play either or both sides of the "game," to claim and/or deny it at the same time, interchangeably, depending on his whim or purpose. However, the footage of the news story that got the cameras inside the Montreal apartment belonging to Magnotta, outside of which the suitcase was found and inside of which other..."matter" was removed by police...well, the apartment and bed looked like it could have been those in the video but both were cleaned up before the news cameras were allowed to enter.

I think he's either playing a game or impulsively humouring his fluctuating whims in the handling of this. I mean, there was no political reason for him to mail body parts to governing agencies so we know he wants the attention, I think he's not yet committed to admitting it was him until he sees a little more of what's on the table if he confesses. I believe he's audacious enough to still believe he's in control here and that he'll be able to use his "confession" as a bargaining chip here when really, his intent is to bask in the glow of telling the world all along. I'd be willing to bet they found a copy of James St. James' Disco Bloodbath somewhere among his personal effects.

"We are living in an age where the pursuit of all values other than money, success, fame and glamour has either been discredited or destroyed."

[navkat]

Now I'm even more confused...haven't seen the video, but the descriptions say the victim was "drugged" and "still moving" and say that someone who is allegedly Magnotta stabbed him with an ice pick, etc.

There was a point in the beginning of the film where the person was still alive and moving and somewhat tied up and yes, appeared to have a decreased level of consciousness. At this point, is still seemed like just a guy and his boyfriend who partied hard the night before and the semi-passed-out boyfriend was still  nekkid and tangled up in the bondage from the prior night's festivities. The awake guy in the room seemed to be playfully messing with the passed-out boyfriend, trying to rouse him, or whatever.

There was a cut and splice and by the time I saw an ice pick, come out, I believe the naked boy was already dead. He did not respond at ALL to any stimulus and looked just...wrong. I started looking away through a lot of this part. Shortly thereafter, it got way worse and I had to stop it and walk away from it.

[Placid Dingo]

BH has already said (in this thread I think), have not seen, will not see, does not like 'real' stuff.

Also the kitten video I'm pretty sure has been alluded to but is not on the Internet.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

BH has already said (in this thread I think), have not seen, will not see, does not like 'real' stuff.

Also the kitten video I'm pretty sure has been alluded to but is not on the Internet.

BH is a snuff freak.  This is the kind of shit that gets him off.

[BabylonHoruv]

BH has already said (in this thread I think), have not seen, will not see, does not like 'real' stuff.

Also the kitten video I'm pretty sure has been alluded to but is not on the Internet.

BH is a snuff freak.  This is the kind of shit that gets him off.

When it's imaginary.

I don't like real, just like furries don't like fucking real animals.

[Triple Zero]

I don't think if he's going to be treated as an ill person who belongs in a hospital that the point should be to make him comfortable until he passes away like a cancer patient. If he's going to be treated at all it must be with the intent to make him less ill. Anything else is assault and battery from a medical standpoint. If the intent is simply to hold him against his will in a cage until he dies of natural causes, he doesn't need to be in a hospital for that. Prison is just fine for that purpose.

I dunno how it works in Canada, but over here we don't consider prison "just fine" for the insane. They go to "TBS clinics" (regardless whether there's a causal connection between their disorder and their crime) where they do get therapy, and structure, lots of structure (the lying games and sleepcycle messing-up isn't really considered conducive to their mental health, usually) and yeah if they do get better they need to finish their term (either in the clinic or regular prison, depending on what the doctors think) and then they go out.

Actually reading on (Dutch) Wikipedia, the system is more complex than that. There's evaluations every 2 years and after 6 years it gets decided whether the patient shall go to a "longstay" clinic which is not intended for treatment but to house mental patients considered a danger to society. Also, in the TBS clinic treatment is voluntary, unless it is forced--that bit is a bit unclear yeah, I could ask a friend of mine who works at one of those places as a psychiatrist how it works exactly. It's very very complicated, all sorts of regulations designed to make sure no human rights and such are violated. There's not many "longstay" patients in NL, btw. about 200. There's also some incidents with patients escaping and bad shit happening, the system is not perfect.

Still I'm fairly happy it works the way it does.

The point of incarceration is fourfold: First, there's punishment of the criminal. I think that's a stupid reason, it smells like "payback" in the name of justice. Second there's setting an example to discourage people from committing such a crime. This I consider a good reason, but you can't have it without the first punishment part (otherwise there's no example), so in that context I consider punishment a good idea. And third, there's removing a dangerous person from society for some amount of time. Fourth, ideally the time in prison should be spent preparing the prisoner to return to society, this time as a better person who won't fall back to crime. That last part doesn't work as well as it should, also not in NL.

But in the case of someone with no compassion, no idea of the "other" being a living breathing human being (this is a disorder that can't be cured, afaik--either sociopathy or psychopathy, I forget) the "setting an example" part does absolutely shitfuckall for the other psychos walking around because they don't care and/or believe they're way too smart to get caught, ever. So that leaves just the 3rd and 4th reasons. IMO.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

BH has already said (in this thread I think), have not seen, will not see, does not like 'real' stuff.

Also the kitten video I'm pretty sure has been alluded to but is not on the Internet.

BH is a snuff freak.  This is the kind of shit that gets him off.

When it's imaginary.

I don't like real, just like furries don't like fucking real animals.

You're still a sick fuck.  I put you in the same basket as the freak in question.

[Prince Glittersnatch III]

BH has already said (in this thread I think), have not seen, will not see, does not like 'real' stuff.

Also the kitten video I'm pretty sure has been alluded to but is not on the Internet.

BH is a snuff freak.  This is the kind of shit that gets him off.

When it's imaginary.

I don't like real, just like furries don't like fucking real animals.

Experience has taught me that is dead wrong. Furry is the gateway drug to bestiality. Just like imaginary snuff is the gateway to lobbing someones head off with an ice pick.

[Freeky]

Navkat, in case it isn't clear yet, the things you proposed--sleep deprivation, lying to the patient--these are in fact forms of torture.  They are psychologically torturous.  It's appalling that you don't think they are torture.

I agree with Faust and whoever else said that a lot of interesting research could come to light from studying him.  I knew a girl who was nominated for a study of her brain, and nobody was saying anything about shit like sleep deprivation and lies and so on.

Also, Trip, they are just now doing studies of that in children, and there is evidence that it can be detected as early as four.  Since the studies are new, and the sample sizes relatively small, there's not a lot of data, but I read the researchers had hopes of finding that they could be helped as children.  I'm pretty sure I found that link here, did you read it too?

[navkat]

BH has already said (in this thread I think), have not seen, will not see, does not like 'real' stuff.

Also the kitten video I'm pretty sure has been alluded to but is not on the Internet.

BH is a snuff freak.  This is the kind of shit that gets him off.

When it's imaginary.

I don't like real, just like furries don't like fucking real animals.

That actually makes it a little easier to grasp. Also (not that I'm the poster child for attracting well-adjusted men) but I had a boyfriend who fantasized about being a vampire and going through the vampire death and rebirth process and who romanticized making love to and like a vampire. He was like, obsessed with it. Bought me frilly victorian-looking shirts and liked me to wear dark lipstick and pale makeup. Drank Tawny Port out of bombastically gaudy goblets and offered me sips with this really intense, undead look on his face. Then, Oliver Stone's The Doors movie came out and he was suddenly obsessed with writing poetry and calling me "Pam."

But you have said some things that do (especially since watching that hot mess, ugh!) give me pause. At one point, you said something that gave me the impression that you were sending out a ping to guage if I was open to your proclivities too which is a resounding NO. But it's not the fact that you did it, it was the way you did it. The segue you jumped on was related to the killing of people in political activism circumstances which is a little too realistic of a possibility of happening in real life to be used as an appropriate way to test for something strictly fantasy, follow?

If you're really telling the truth that the idea of real death is repugnant to you while some romanticized, play-acting death scene is what's going on in your head, that sounds a little odd and silly but likely non-threatening. But I think it's safe to say that the majority of people here are uncomfortable with your fetish (or in my case, find it a little icky) so here's probably a not good place to ever, ever send out a signal flare. 

[Golden Applesauce]

The fucked up problem is that YOU have a conscience and YOU who are a contribution to society, putting well-raised children into the world would lose your kids and since YOU work a real job and contribute, YOU would have a hell of a time getting them back while you work and pay for your own legal, etc.

SHE will do six months in Metro and get anger-management classes offered by some Meaher's pet contracted Social service, paid for by tax dollars because she's indigent and be assigned an attorney by DHR to get her kids back.

Are you upset that she's being treated well, that you're being treated poorly, or that someone you look down on is being treated better than you?  May not be what you intended, but comes off as "as long as there's someone with even less rights and dignity than me."  Like, you're okay with living in a violent, cruel society, so long as the bad stuff happens to the right people.

[Golden Applesauce]

BH has already said (in this thread I think), have not seen, will not see, does not like 'real' stuff.

Also the kitten video I'm pretty sure has been alluded to but is not on the Internet.

BH is a snuff freak.  This is the kind of shit that gets him off.

When it's imaginary.

I don't like real, just like furries don't like fucking real animals.

You're still a sick fuck.  I put you in the same basket as the freak in question.

To be fair, there's being an attention whore, and there's planning of and carrying out a murder of another human being to stoke your ego.

IIRC, one of the first things Babylon did after joining this forum was to participate in a dice-rolling experiment to test his magickal powers, which puts him at least +5 respect points ahead of the magicqueial pagans who hide behind insane forum mods. Even if he pinned it on a cold later, he at least put himself in the position to fail publicly.

[Anna Mae Bollocks]

The fucked up problem is that YOU have a conscience and YOU who are a contribution to society, putting well-raised children into the world would lose your kids and since YOU work a real job and contribute, YOU would have a hell of a time getting them back while you work and pay for your own legal, etc.

SHE will do six months in Metro and get anger-management classes offered by some Meaher's pet contracted Social service, paid for by tax dollars because she's indigent and be assigned an attorney by DHR to get her kids back.

Are you upset that she's being treated well, that you're being treated poorly, or that someone you look down on is being treated better than you?  May not be what you intended, but comes off as "as long as there's someone with even less rights and dignity than me."  Like, you're okay with living in a violent, cruel society, so long as the bad stuff happens to the right people.

It's like the way people used to (and sometimes still do) carry on about people on welfare:

"I SAW THAT WELFARE SLUG WITH HER KIDS AT MCDONALDS AND THEY WERE EATING WITH MY TAX DOLLARS, I WORK 60 HOURS A WEEK AND I CAN'T AFFORD TO TAKE MY KIDS TO MCDONALDS!" These things end up with no welfare for anybody who needs it, of course. Including people who said things like that and are no longer working.

Welfare cuts suck, but they're a pretty cheap lesson compared to brutalizing prisoners.

[navkat]

Navkat, in case it isn't clear yet, the things you proposed--sleep deprivation, lying to the patient--these are in fact forms of torture.  They are psychologically torturous.  It's appalling that you don't think they are torture.

I can't decide if I agree with you that it's actual torture (although a mild form at the level I have in my head) and I'm saying "So be it. It's a necessary evil in this case." OR if I disagree that it's actual torture (at least in this application and level) and rather believe it's discomfort...and used as a tool to elicit emotional response in an attempt to find a crack in his dissociation.

Sociopathy is borne of dissociation. The sociopath at some point learned to cope by completely disconnecting from the human experiences of fear, reliance on others, trust, need for security, etc. I have a few theories (based on my "advanced novice" understanding of clinical psychiatry and some physiology) about how to "correct" (or re-sensitize) the sociopathic disordered mechanism. Part of this process will no doubt, require the a measured, dynamic use of positive punishment like placing the patient in situations of discomfort and duress, negative reinforcement (ending discomfort.."saving" the patient from the discomfort) and the application of positive reinforcement (reward) in conjunction with the use of oxytocin and some transference psychodynamic therapy practices.

The problem is: sociopaths don't often seek therapy unless it's to avoid discomfort and personal inconvenience like imprisonment or the end of a convenient marriage. The prognosis is poor because they're very seductive liars and bullshit artists. The psychotherapist often has to see a psychotherapist him or her self to maintain connection to reality and avoid being "sucked into" the sociopath's world. Therapy is more effective in children displaying ODD not just because habits are easier to break in the young, but also because a teen or child is a captive audience whose status doesn't allow him to disregard instructions, blow off appointments or otherwise weasel his way out of treatment outside of internal disregard and dissociation. Certain manipulation tactics are also less effective in a pediatric patient because there's only so much bullshit he can get away with when he still lives under supervision.

In a situation like this where a sociopath, untreated and unaddressed, has caused this much damage, it's pretty safe to say that extreme, compulsory psychiatric intervention is not unwarranted. In fact, as I've recently learned, not all sociopaths are killers or criminals or even terrible, awful people. There are plenty who have no desire to hurt anyone or commit any crimes or even do anything which would put them at odds with society. Many of them have found a comfortable niche within society's parameters and to put themselves at odds would be counterproductive to their wants and needs. They are simply people who have no capacity for empathy and therefore, no ability to feel guilt or selflessness and so, love. It's believed to be due to a combination of genetic predisposition and a poorly formed frame of reference for a healthy give-and-take, dependence/met needs/trust/attachment dynamic in childhood.

Magnotta was allowed to live in society to find a niche of comfort without chopping people to pieces for casual fun. He fucked that all up. If he's ordered into treatment, I think it's totally justified to make intensive, radical treatment ideas compulsory.

If that's using (mild) torture as a means to an end to his sickness, so be it.

The alternative, as I am reading it from some of your responses, is just as ugly in a sense...or possibly worse in a way.  That is to completely de-humanize him. To call him "not a human being and beyond hope of becoming one." But you still accept that he's a living creature...still an animal and therefore, entitled to not endure cruelty. The same thing that makes it fucked up to hurt a puppy, right? But if an adult Rottweiler mauled a baby and proved himself unable to live harmoniously with other humans, what would you do? Would you pay for him to stay in a kennel and never be placed in a state of unreasonable discomfort until he passed away of natural causes?

What about aggressive, human-spoiled Grizzlies who are increasingly entering human dwelling areas, eating pets, attacking children? What do we do with those guys when they are beyond naturalization?

And what about other primates? If a member of the troop showed total disregard for societal laws necessary for harmonious survival of the troop, what do the other primates do?  If one of the troop's members murdered and then displayed deviant behavior with the corpse of a beloved/respected member of the troop, how do the Rhesus monkeys respond?

And how about this: isn't just being in a cage a form of cruelty to any creature and therefore, consequential vengeance?

What other than self-awareness within the context of our unique relationship to our species and the world around us makes up sentience as opposed to simple, mechanical intelligence?

If Magnotta is a lost cause because he can not maintain meaningful, accurate self-awareness as he relates to the other members of his own species, what makes him different than that Rottweiler or the Grizzly: an intelligent predator with a capacity to deceive? Why should we merely house him in comfort?

Do I think we have discovered definitive techniques to rehabilitate him in this lifetime? Probably no. But I think someday, we may possibly look back and see our dismissal of sociopaths (or any psycho-pathology) as incapable of rehabilitation as the thing that's archaic, brutal and primitive, not strides to bridge that gap, but the refusal to try...like the way we used to dump cerebral palsy patients into nuthouses or institutions for the mentally disabled.

But I'd be full of shit if I said my ultimate goal was fair or humane treatment here. Essentially, my motives a geared towards making an honest effort to find a palliative treatment so that others can benefit from what we learn from treating him.

[Golden Applesauce]

If you want any chance at treating him, you must force him out of his fantasy-land where he's a top-earning, world-renowned, jet-setter pr0n star. The only way to do that is to alter his locus of control. The only way to alter his locus of control is to break down his sense of the predictable and constantly re-direct him as soon as he thinks he's found a way to control or influence the situation.

The items mentioned are not intended as revenge, they aren't kind, by any means but they are intended to be #1 imposed upon him against his will, #2 unmercifully difficult for him and #3 highly effective at "breaking him down to build him back up" the way sleep deprivation and re-ordering sense of individuality or personal control is used in boot camp to "clean the slate" bad civilian attitude problems and habits in the new recruit.

Not to be snide, but recent events in Afganistan and Iraq suggest that bootcamp / war zone style breaking down of an individuals sense of self might be the opposite of what turns mass murderers into well-adjusted people.

What you're proposing is the gross disintegration of a human's psyche, in an extremely painful process that the "patient" does not want and receives no personal benefit from (why would he want to be normal?) on the off chance that maybe this time that style of psychological torture would un-insane someone. Given that there's no record of anyone being cured of sociopathy, ever, I don't really see the point.  If nothing else, it turns a couple of people from doctors into torturers.

eta: written before I saw your most recent post.