Occupy

[Cain]

The tactics used at UC Davis by the police make utterly no sense, unless this was intended as a set-up for a larger confrontation.

Looking over video reports and accounts of the day's activities, the police seem ill-led and their rules of engagement contradictory (at one point they've got several guys holding tasers aimed at the protestors, along with two guys with pepper spray who do nothing while the crowd advances towards them, chanting, yet they do nothing but hold their position).

The police engage in retreats and then holding positions at odd times.  At moments, they seem to have utterly no clue what they were doing.

This was provocation.  Pure and simple.  Someone made a decision to get something a bit nasty rolling, then throw an ill-trained and ill-led group of policemen in at the deep end in hope that the protestors would attempt to fight them, and they'd end up having to call in heavies to smash the entire protest apart.  The discipline of the UC Davis protestors are the only thing that stopped this from happening.

[LMNO]

Newt on Occupy

"They take over a public park they didn't pay for, to go nearby to use bathrooms they didn't pay for, to beg for food from places they they don't want to pay for... Go get a job, right after you take a bath."

Krugman on Occupy

Right now, the campaign against OWS basically tries to get working Americans to turn on the movement, even though most people support the movement's goals, by trying to make it seem as if the protestors are people not like you — whereas the plutocrats are. Hey, this has worked many times in the past; that's the whole point of "What's the matter with Kansas." And it can operate in many directions: OWS should be shunned because they're dirty hippies, Elizabeth Warren is not-like-you because, horrors, she's a Harvard professor.

So what to do? Within limits, one should try to allay unnecessary social dissonance. If you're going to have a demonstration on behalf of working Americans, can the drumming circles. The class warriors on the right want to convince people it's really a culture war, and you don't want to make their job easier.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Newt on Occupy

"They take over a public park they didn't pay for, to go nearby to use bathrooms they didn't pay for, to beg for food from places they they don't want to pay for... Go get a job, right after you take a bath."

Krugman on Occupy

Right now, the campaign against OWS basically tries to get working Americans to turn on the movement, even though most people support the movement's goals, by trying to make it seem as if the protestors are people not like you — whereas the plutocrats are. Hey, this has worked many times in the past; that's the whole point of "What's the matter with Kansas." And it can operate in many directions: OWS should be shunned because they're dirty hippies, Elizabeth Warren is not-like-you because, horrors, she's a Harvard professor.

So what to do? Within limits, one should try to allay unnecessary social dissonance. If you're going to have a demonstration on behalf of working Americans, can the drumming circles. The class warriors on the right want to convince people it's really a culture war, and you don't want to make their job easier.

That's a good point. Though it's a bit problematic to enforce. You can't throw hippies out of a protest!?

This is part of the reason why I go with a more polished look when I participate in protests. Dress shoes, pea coat, neatly trimmed facial hair, calm professional demeanor....

[The Wizard Joseph]

The tactics used at UC Davis by the police make utterly no sense, unless this was intended as a set-up for a larger confrontation.

Looking over video reports and accounts of the day's activities, the police seem ill-led and their rules of engagement contradictory (at one point they've got several guys holding tasers aimed at the protestors, along with two guys with pepper spray who do nothing while the crowd advances towards them, chanting, yet they do nothing but hold their position).

The police engage in retreats and then holding positions at odd times.  At moments, they seem to have utterly no clue what they were doing.

This was provocation.  Pure and simple.  Someone made a decision to get something a bit nasty rolling, then throw an ill-trained and ill-led group of policemen in at the deep end in hope that the protestors would attempt to fight them, and they'd end up having to call in heavies to smash the entire protest apart.  The discipline of the UC Davis protestors are the only thing that stopped this from happening.

Yeah, it's my hope that they manage to maintain a pattern like that.  If they allow themselves to snap then they lose over time.  The persistence necessary to succeed at this definitely seems to be there.  There is also  a pretty strong and resourceful core to the group that knows how to hold out under fire.  

The best part to me is that even when there are flare-ups of violence the movement as a whole can continue on city by city no matter how bad a situation gets for one encampment.  What could the authorities really do to stop people in a worldwide way?  If tension comes to a head and something manages to finally cause the big snap then I can't imagine what there is to do about millions of people worldwide well coordinated and basically rioting but managing it in real time.  

[Kai]

Newt on Occupy

"They take over a public park they didn't pay for, to go nearby to use bathrooms they didn't pay for, to beg for food from places they they don't want to pay for... Go get a job, right after you take a bath."

Krugman on Occupy

Right now, the campaign against OWS basically tries to get working Americans to turn on the movement, even though most people support the movement's goals, by trying to make it seem as if the protestors are people not like you — whereas the plutocrats are. Hey, this has worked many times in the past; that's the whole point of "What's the matter with Kansas." And it can operate in many directions: OWS should be shunned because they're dirty hippies, Elizabeth Warren is not-like-you because, horrors, she's a Harvard professor.

So what to do? Within limits, one should try to allay unnecessary social dissonance. If you're going to have a demonstration on behalf of working Americans, can the drumming circles. The class warriors on the right want to convince people it's really a culture war, and you don't want to make their job easier.

That's a good point. Though it's a bit problematic to enforce. You can't throw hippies out of a protest!?

This is part of the reason why I go with a more polished look when I participate in protests. Dress shoes, pea coat, neatly trimmed facial hair, calm professional demeanor....

Yeah, because the last thing you'd want to do is look like someone who's economically downtrodden at a protest for the economically downtrodden.

[Kai]

As for the Davis protest, it's not a real secret that I'm considering going there for my PhD. And that the students are so fierce and disciplined in their protest is pulling me in...

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Seattle, of course, is keeping up their fine tradition of keeping radical hooligans in line:

Hello, America.

You did this.   

[The Wizard Joseph]

Seattle, of course, is keeping up their fine tradition of keeping radical hooligans in line:

Hello, America.

You did this.   

I take it that's pepper spray on her face? 

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Seattle, of course, is keeping up their fine tradition of keeping radical hooligans in line:

Hello, America.

You did this.   

I take it that's pepper spray on her face? 

Looking at her scarf, I'm thinking it's a bit of pepperspray and a whole lot of vomit.

Because here in the land of the free, we're all about spraying 75 year old ladies with pepper spray.

GOD BLESS TEH AMURRICA, LAND OF THE STAY IN LINE GRANNY OR ELSE.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Seattle, of course, is keeping up their fine tradition of keeping radical hooligans in line:

Hello, America.

You did this.   

I take it that's pepper spray on her face? 

Looking at her scarf, I'm thinking it's a bit of pepperspray and a whole lot of vomit.

Because here in the land of the free, we're all about spraying 75 year old ladies with pepper spray.

GOD BLESS TEH AMURRICA, LAND OF THE STAY IN LINE GRANNY OR ELSE.

I believe it is Maalox and water, a pepper spray antidote.

[Triple Zero]

Krugman on Occupy

Right now, the campaign against OWS basically tries to get working Americans to turn on the movement, even though most people support the movement's goals, by trying to make it seem as if the protestors are people not like you — whereas the plutocrats are. Hey, this has worked many times in the past; that's the whole point of "What's the matter with Kansas." And it can operate in many directions: OWS should be shunned because they're dirty hippies, Elizabeth Warren is not-like-you because, horrors, she's a Harvard professor.

So what to do? Within limits, one should try to allay unnecessary social dissonance. If you're going to have a demonstration on behalf of working Americans, can the drumming circles. The class warriors on the right want to convince people it's really a culture war, and you don't want to make their job easier.

This reminds me of a Belgian (actually non-Dutch Belgian) article I read yesterday:

Google Translated version of said article

"Playful" should actually be translated as humoristic/crazy/playful. Kind of like the shit Discordians like to pull, the stuff we used to like to pull before SHIT GOT REAL. It's about some Belgian protest movement called SHAME (never heard of it), and the guy says while he liked the playful/funny demonstrations, especially because the public also seemed to like them, it is not enough however, and caused the movement to sort of lose momentum and bleed to death. "They took the 'sting' from the protest movement", he said, while he agrees there should be a place for humoristic protests, "at some point you also need to dare to be on the offensive and assertive. We used to judge the politics of a country, but then the politicians got an entirely different signal, that the populations thinks it's all very funny: let's drink a pint to the <crazy thing> and it's solved. Which is a shame, a good protest should also be threatening."

Now Occupy can't really be said to be too playful or doing a lot of zany protest demonstrations, but that's besides the point. It doesn't really matter with what kind of behaviour they're diffusing/defusing their potential, the important part is that they shouldn't and instead should carry a STING.

For example that thing where a lot of people transferred their savings to a union bank, that (kinda) stung. But not the drum circles.

Of course this is exactly what some people ITT have been calling for from the beginning (Cain, among others, IIRC), but it bears repeating, and it's not too late even if Occupy is a bit slow on the uptake, right?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Seattle, of course, is keeping up their fine tradition of keeping radical hooligans in line:

Hello, America.

You did this.   

I take it that's pepper spray on her face? 

Looking at her scarf, I'm thinking it's a bit of pepperspray and a whole lot of vomit.

Because here in the land of the free, we're all about spraying 75 year old ladies with pepper spray.

GOD BLESS TEH AMURRICA, LAND OF THE STAY IN LINE GRANNY OR ELSE.

I believe it is Maalox and water, a pepper spray antidote.

Good.

But the fact remains, some granny in her 70s got peppersprayed for speaking her piece.

And then other protesters had to help her, because the forces of "law & order"¹ certainly fucking wouldn't.  

My disgust and outrage with Seattle - hell, with 50% of America - is hard to articulate.




¹  Here in Tucson, of all places, we really DO have law & order.  The cops so far have been far more concerned with the welfare of the protesters, than in shutting them up.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Newt on Occupy

"They take over a public park they didn't pay for, to go nearby to use bathrooms they didn't pay for, to beg for food from places they they don't want to pay for... Go get a job, right after you take a bath."

Krugman on Occupy

Right now, the campaign against OWS basically tries to get working Americans to turn on the movement, even though most people support the movement's goals, by trying to make it seem as if the protestors are people not like you — whereas the plutocrats are. Hey, this has worked many times in the past; that's the whole point of "What's the matter with Kansas." And it can operate in many directions: OWS should be shunned because they're dirty hippies, Elizabeth Warren is not-like-you because, horrors, she's a Harvard professor.

So what to do? Within limits, one should try to allay unnecessary social dissonance. If you're going to have a demonstration on behalf of working Americans, can the drumming circles. The class warriors on the right want to convince people it's really a culture war, and you don't want to make their job easier.

That's a good point. Though it's a bit problematic to enforce. You can't throw hippies out of a protest!?

This is part of the reason why I go with a more polished look when I participate in protests. Dress shoes, pea coat, neatly trimmed facial hair, calm professional demeanor....

Yeah, because the last thing you'd want to do is look like someone who's economically downtrodden at a protest for the economically downtrodden.

Ah, so only the economically downtrodden can protest for the economically downtrodden? Or if you're not economically downtrodden, you should pretend to be?

Sheer bollocks.

[Triple Zero]

Yeah, because the last thing you'd want to do is look like someone who's economically downtrodden at a protest for the economically downtrodden.

So, basically, fucked if you do, fucked if you don't?

Either you're a filthy hippie and can be ignored, or you're looking too professional so you have a job and what's your problem then?

BTW I'm not putting these words in your mouth, Kai Don't worry But it's an interesting catch-22 kind of thing with regards to public opinion.

[not really a catch-22 but I can't come up with the proper simile]

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Fucking insanity. I am really  glad that the protestors are refraining from fighting back, because this is making the America Machine™ look like shit.