I'll just leave this here....

[BabylonHoruv]

fuck,  leaving medical marijuana alone was the only thing I saw Obama doing right,  now I don't like anything about him.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

fuck,  leaving medical marijuana alone was the only thing I saw Obama doing right,  now I don't like anything about him.

He does have a fucking killer smile, though.

[Placid Dingo]

Prepare for an increase in crime:

Medical marijuana dispensaries -- with storerooms of high-priced weed, registers brimming with cash and some clientele more interested in getting high than getting well -- are often seen as magnets for crime, a perception deepened by a few high-profile murders.

But a report from the Rand Corp. reaches a startling conclusion: The opposite appears to be true.

In a study of crime near Los Angeles dispensaries -- which the investigators call the most rigorous independent examination of its kind -- the Santa Monica-based think tank found that crime actually increased near hundreds of pot shops after they were required to close last summer.

The researchers compared the 10 days before the city's medical marijuana ordinance took effect June 7, 2010, with the 10 days after, when many of the more than 400 illegal dispensaries shut down -- if only briefly.

They found a 59% increase in crime within three-tenths of a mile of a closed dispensary compared to an open one and a 24% increase within six-tenths of a mile.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/21/local/la-me-0928-marijuana-dispensaries-20110921

Devil's Advocate

We know crime increases in areas where rule of law is perceived to be lessened, and this can manifest in more rundown/graffiti'd areas having a higher likelihood of crime (though IIRC not necessarily serious crimes)

So its not surprising a closed pot shop has more crime than an open one.

The better question is, how does crime at a pot shop compare to crime at a, say, Walmart or Fruit Store.

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

Prepare for an increase in crime:

Medical marijuana dispensaries -- with storerooms of high-priced weed, registers brimming with cash and some clientele more interested in getting high than getting well -- are often seen as magnets for crime, a perception deepened by a few high-profile murders.

But a report from the Rand Corp. reaches a startling conclusion: The opposite appears to be true.

In a study of crime near Los Angeles dispensaries -- which the investigators call the most rigorous independent examination of its kind -- the Santa Monica-based think tank found that crime actually increased near hundreds of pot shops after they were required to close last summer.

The researchers compared the 10 days before the city's medical marijuana ordinance took effect June 7, 2010, with the 10 days after, when many of the more than 400 illegal dispensaries shut down -- if only briefly.

They found a 59% increase in crime within three-tenths of a mile of a closed dispensary compared to an open one and a 24% increase within six-tenths of a mile.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/21/local/la-me-0928-marijuana-dispensaries-20110921

Devil's Advocate

We know crime increases in areas where rule of law is perceived to be lessened, and this can manifest in more rundown/graffiti'd areas having a higher likelihood of crime (though IIRC not necessarily serious crimes)

So its not surprising a closed pot shop has more crime than an open one.

What relevance does the broken window effect have to do with open or closed pot shops? You seem to assume that because there is a vacancy in a building that it necessarily has a rundown appearance. Or perhaps you're suggesting that only landlords that rent to pot shop businesses allow their buildings to become unkempt?

The better question is, how does crime at a pot shop compare to crime at a, say, Walmart or Fruit Store.

A "better question" than what?

Comparing even the largest pot shop in the US to the smallest Walmart is completely unwarranted. Apples and oranges, man. And again, a "fruit store"? I don't know how you Australians do things, but that doesn't exist here and even if they did, you'd have make an argument as to why they are similar enough to compare. Right now it appears to be so dissimilar as to be irrelevant.

A more useful comparison would be a pharmacy, as both pharmacies and pot shops involve controlled substances that are only legally dispensed with prescriptions from a doctor, they both serve adults seeking relief from ailments, and both have similar security measures.

You may be playing devils' advocate, but at least put some oomph into it.

[Placid Dingo]

The point was that, your claim that crime dropped when pot shops closed seemed to indicate that there was evidence pot shops did not increase crime rates. To my way of thinking this particular statistic only suggests that crime increases in areas with disused buildings.

if we want to ask 'do pot shops cause crime, we're better off comparing rates of crime outside open stores to other open stores of different types. Or places where a pot shop was replaced by a different shop and crime rates were recoded, or vice versa.

[AFK]

I honestly think it is a wash.  Pot shops lead to more crime in one sense.  That crime being the diversion of medical marijuana.  On the other hand, it could lessen crimes as those who were using marijuana for medical purposes could now do it legally. 

So closing down pot shops should cause a drop in medical marijuana diversion.
The questions is how this shift in policy affects medical marijuana users. 

I don't know this for fact, but I suspect that the Obama administration is limiting this crack down to dispensers and will leave the end-users alone.  I think this is really about sending a message to the people that the Obama administration doesn't believe in the medical marijuana model. 

[ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞]

The point was that, your claim that crime dropped when pot shops closed seemed to indicate that there was evidence pot shops did not increase crime rates. To my way of thinking this particular statistic only suggests that crime increases in areas with disused buildings.

if we want to ask 'do pot shops cause crime, we're better off comparing rates of crime outside open stores to other open stores of different types. Or places where a pot shop was replaced by a different shop and crime rates were recoded, or vice versa.

If you have an issue with the methodology in the study I linked, go ahead and try to make your case, otherwise you're starting to move into the realm of rhetoric by trying to say this is only a "claim".

You think a nearly 60% increase in crime in the immediate vicinity is typical for the closure of any business? Okay, go ahead and bring some actual evidence, because your unsubstantiated conjecture just sounds like a butt trumpet solo at this point.

[East Coast Hustle]

I think the amount of diversion that is happening might, at least partly, be fueling this.  (referring to the OP, not Telarus' link)

Red herring. Anyone who got medical marijuana "diverted" from a legitimate medical patient would have just bought it on the black market anyway. All this will do is cause a whole bunch of needless suffering for people who have conditions for which marijuana is a legitimate and effective relief.

But hey, fuck those cancer patients, AIDS patients, and people with digestive system conditions who can't force a bite of food down unless they have the munchies. They'll probably be dead by the time the next election rolls around anyway, right?

(ETA: That anger is directed at the federal government, not at RWHN for bringing this issue to light. I appreciate being made informed of this.)

[AFK]

Well, technically, when it is diverted it becomes part of the black market.  Unless of course people are giving it away for free when they divert it, which isn't likely since this stuff can get someone some significant cash.  Same reason people divert/sell Rx drugs.  A single oxycodone pill can get someone $80-120.  In these economic times, people will turn to enterprises like these to make money. 

[Triple Zero]

... 30 pages?

I'm not sure.

One thing I know about threads like these is that they're super-funny when you're high.

And I'm not feelin' it.

[East Coast Hustle]

Well, technically, when it is diverted it becomes part of the black market.  Unless of course people are giving it away for free when they divert it, which isn't likely since this stuff can get someone some significant cash. 

Well yeah, my point was more that the diversion isn't adding to the number of recreational marijuana smokers or the amount of recreational marijuana being smoked. And it's not like people are buying from dispensaries in bulk and reselling small bags on the street because the dispensaries don't give the price break for quantity that a black market dealer would, especially since many dispensaries price it by the gram no matter how much you buy. I can buy an ounce of the highest-grade pot available on the street for around $225. That same ounce in a dispensary costs $300+ which makes selling it for $40 an eighth (the going rate in the PNW - YMMV) pretty useless. And you can't even buy a QP or a pound from a dispensary. The diversion is almost strictly coming in the form of "hey, dude, mind picking me up some next time you go to the pot store?" and not in the form of furthering a commercial black market enterprise.

[AFK]

I disagree based upon the information from my sources. 

But I'm not going to get into an argument or debate on that. 

[East Coast Hustle]

I'm not much interested in it either. My sources are many years spent in the industry in question and many friends still in it. IMO, extensive firsthand knowledge trumps any academic research conducted by outsiders. You will obviously disagree and that's fine too.

However, though I'm not interested in arguing over it, I am interested in reading any research you can link me to that either states or implies that people are buying marijuana in bulk quantities from dispensaries for resale on the black market.

I mean, I love my job but you never know when the ship might sink and I'd sure like to know where the dispensaries are that make that economically feasible.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I know growers who started growing for a specific patient and sell their excess through the dispensary. They have no need to sell illegally, and the black market is already pretty saturated.

But that's just Portland. And shit might change now, since the Feds are cracking down on farms (destroying local smalltown economies and putting families in financial jeopardy while they're at it).

[AFK]

Well what I'm hearing is that people are Dr shopping, getting scripts, and THEN selling.  Certainly it is also happening where people are simply giving a little bit of their supply to friends/families.  But there is medical marijuana, at least in Maine, that is ending up in the black market.