I'll just leave this here....

[AFK]

I happen to think that debate itself is a red herring.  Because it supposes that drugs are scheduled and banned in accordance with each other.  But that is not the case.  A good example is the recent banning of bath salts.  It wasn't banned because, comparitively, it is fucking up people worse than other drugs.  It was banned because, on its own merits, it was really fucking up people.  (This is a very, very dangerous drug, or I should say, class of drugs)

The problem with that debate is that it instantaneously gets bogged down because the debate is basically saying, marijuana doesn't kill people like alcohol and tobacco, ergo, it should be legal.  So maybe a more productive debate or conversation is, does a drug need to be sufficiently lethal to merit scheduling, or does it make sense to schedule for the developmental issues it can cause? 

And in that case I would point you to the National Insitute on Drug Abuse as a site where you can get information as to the effects of marijuana on adults and children.  There is also the ONDCP website which actually has a couple of specific papers outlining why marijuana is illegal.  I know that particular site tends to be very controversial because, well, it's the ONDCP. 

[East Coast Hustle]

Well what I'm hearing is that people are Dr shopping, getting scripts, and THEN selling.  Certainly it is also happening where people are simply giving a little bit of their supply to friends/families.  But there is medical marijuana, at least in Maine, that is ending up in the black market. 

ehhh...that doesn't make much sense. You don't get a prescription for medical marijuana, you just get a doctor's recommendation. And your insurance doesn't pay for it so you still have to pay full price at whatever rate the dispensary decides to charge.

[East Coast Hustle]

RWHN, can you provide a summary of the arguments as to Cannabis being an illegal substance as opposed to alchohol or tobacco?

I'd like a run down so I can use it in my own conversations. I trust your input because you're an educated expert, and so much which is discussed concerning these topics is personal anecdote, ad hoc, or red herring.

Why you trollin'? Got a bet on how many pages this thread hits?

[AFK]

Well what I'm hearing is that people are Dr shopping, getting scripts, and THEN selling.  Certainly it is also happening where people are simply giving a little bit of their supply to friends/families.  But there is medical marijuana, at least in Maine, that is ending up in the black market. 

ehhh...that doesn't make much sense. You don't get a prescription for medical marijuana, you just get a doctor's recommendation. And your insurance doesn't pay for it so you still have to pay full price at whatever rate the dispensary decides to charge.

No, in Maine anyway, according to the law, you have to have a prescription for it.  By law, you aren't legally allowed to possess and use medical marijuana without a prescription. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Well what I'm hearing is that people are Dr shopping, getting scripts, and THEN selling.  Certainly it is also happening where people are simply giving a little bit of their supply to friends/families.  But there is medical marijuana, at least in Maine, that is ending up in the black market. 

ehhh...that doesn't make much sense. You don't get a prescription for medical marijuana, you just get a doctor's recommendation. And your insurance doesn't pay for it so you still have to pay full price at whatever rate the dispensary decides to charge.

No, in Maine anyway, according to the law, you have to have a prescription for it.  By law, you aren't legally allowed to possess and use medical marijuana without a prescription. 

In Oregon, you have to fill out an application and have your doctor sign it, and send it in with your doctor's diagnosis and your fee to the State, which issues you a license to grow and use marijuana for medical purposes. http://licenseinfo.oregon.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=license_seng&link_item_id=14549

[Scribbly]

I happen to think that debate itself is a red herring.  Because it supposes that drugs are scheduled and banned in accordance with each other.  But that is not the case.  A good example is the recent banning of bath salts.  It wasn't banned because, comparitively, it is fucking up people worse than other drugs.  It was banned because, on its own merits, it was really fucking up people.  (This is a very, very dangerous drug, or I should say, class of drugs)

The problem with that debate is that it instantaneously gets bogged down because the debate is basically saying, marijuana doesn't kill people like alcohol and tobacco, ergo, it should be legal.  So maybe a more productive debate or conversation is, does a drug need to be sufficiently lethal to merit scheduling, or does it make sense to schedule for the developmental issues it can cause? 

And in that case I would point you to the National Insitute on Drug Abuse as a site where you can get information as to the effects of marijuana on adults and children.  There is also the ONDCP website which actually has a couple of specific papers outlining why marijuana is illegal.  I know that particular site tends to be very controversial because, well, it's the ONDCP. 

The trouble with that is that alcohol is certainly dangerous developmentally and for health issues, (not just for what can happen if a child drinks it, but what can happen if parents of children are addicted), and tobacco has (I believe) more documented health issues than marijuana.

So if the more productive debate is whether it should be banned for its developmental effects as well as associated health risks, alcohol beats it on both counts and tobacco beats it on one, doesn't it? So the question of whether tobacco and alcohol should be banned alongside it is still a valid one.

It is just that our culture makes the banning of alcohol impossible, because that particular drug is held to different standards. Unless I'm missing something here? Not that pointing out the hypocrisy is itself enough to toss concerns out the window on that basis alone, but it still seems like a valid complaint to me, and possibly an argument for more alcohol-focused abuse prevention campaigns.

I don't know about the States, but I wrote a paper on drug and alcohol abuse in the UK, and some of the statistics I was coming across regarding how much damage alcohol does simply because it is a 'socially acceptable' addiction were horrendous. That seems like a pretty good reason to try to fight more substances entering that same category in people's minds.

[Triple Zero]

Well what I'm hearing is that people are Dr shopping, getting scripts, and THEN selling.  Certainly it is also happening where people are simply giving a little bit of their supply to friends/families.  But there is medical marijuana, at least in Maine, that is ending up in the black market. 

ehhh...that doesn't make much sense. You don't get a prescription for medical marijuana, you just get a doctor's recommendation. And your insurance doesn't pay for it so you still have to pay full price at whatever rate the dispensary decides to charge.

I think (but RWHN can correct me if I'm wrong) is that what he said is using a very loose definition of "black market".

So if marijuana is not available for any person to buy (which it isn't), then somebody who can get it "medically" will get a bit more than they'd use for themselves and sell it to other people.

Of course, this is not particularly profitable, let alone on a larger scale. But it is "black market", in a sense.

[East Coast Hustle]

It's not profitable at all, for reasons stated above. And I'd like to see a citation that you get an actual prescription in Maine, since AFAIK doctor's can't prescribe a drug that is scheduled by the feds to have no medicinal value. Every single other state that has legalized medical marijuana uses the "doctor's reccomendation" model, primarily to protect the doctors from potential federal charges. If in fact Maine doctors DO write an actual prescription as opposed to a reccommendation, I wonder if there's a way that could be used as ammunition towards having marijuana rescheduled.

Also still waiting for a link to whichever study RWHN is using as a source re: diversion of medical marijuana to the black market fueling this new hard-on the feds have for busting dispensaries and farms.

[AFK]

This is what I actually said about what I suspect is behind the crackdown. 

I honestly think it is a wash.  Pot shops lead to more crime in one sense.  That crime being the diversion of medical marijuana.  On the other hand, it could lessen crimes as those who were using marijuana for medical purposes could now do it legally. 

So closing down pot shops should cause a drop in medical marijuana diversion.
The questions is how this shift in policy affects medical marijuana users. 

I don't know this for fact, but I suspect that the Obama administration is limiting this crack down to dispensers and will leave the end-users alone.  I think this is really about sending a message to the people that the Obama administration doesn't believe in the medical marijuana model. 

[AFK]

Well what I'm hearing is that people are Dr shopping, getting scripts, and THEN selling.  Certainly it is also happening where people are simply giving a little bit of their supply to friends/families.  But there is medical marijuana, at least in Maine, that is ending up in the black market. 

ehhh...that doesn't make much sense. You don't get a prescription for medical marijuana, you just get a doctor's recommendation. And your insurance doesn't pay for it so you still have to pay full price at whatever rate the dispensary decides to charge.

I think (but RWHN can correct me if I'm wrong) is that what he said is using a very loose definition of "black market".

So if marijuana is not available for any person to buy (which it isn't), then somebody who can get it "medically" will get a bit more than they'd use for themselves and sell it to other people.

Of course, this is not particularly profitable, let alone on a larger scale. But it is "black market", in a sense.

Yes.  And in this day and age when people are literally scraping up cash to put food on the table, "particularly profitable" isn't necessarily a motivator. 

[Triple Zero]

It's not profitable at all, for reasons stated above. And I'd like to see a citation that you get an actual prescription in Maine, since AFAIK doctor's can't prescribe a drug that is scheduled by the feds to have no medicinal value. Every single other state that has legalized medical marijuana uses the "doctor's reccomendation" model, primarily to protect the doctors from potential federal charges. If in fact Maine doctors DO write an actual prescription as opposed to a reccommendation, I wonder if there's a way that could be used as ammunition towards having marijuana rescheduled.

Oh okay, I should probably stay out of this discussion, then. I thought you needed a prescription to get medicinal weed?

So how does that work then?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's not profitable at all, for reasons stated above. And I'd like to see a citation that you get an actual prescription in Maine, since AFAIK doctor's can't prescribe a drug that is scheduled by the feds to have no medicinal value. Every single other state that has legalized medical marijuana uses the "doctor's reccomendation" model, primarily to protect the doctors from potential federal charges. If in fact Maine doctors DO write an actual prescription as opposed to a reccommendation, I wonder if there's a way that could be used as ammunition towards having marijuana rescheduled.

Oh okay, I should probably stay out of this discussion, then. I thought you needed a prescription to get medicinal weed?

So how does that work then?

In Oregon: http://licenseinfo.oregon.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=license_seng&link_item_id=14549

[Disco Pickle]

I don't know the exact argument on this from the administration.  If it were me, my argument would be about countering the message that medical marijuana is (even if unintentionally) sending to our young people.

Well, actually, it is sending two messages, from my perspective.

1) Marijuana is ok.  A Dr. is prescribing it now, so that means it is ok. 
2) You need drugs/chemicals to combat pain. 

America is becoming an increasingly more medicated nation.  The average number of scripts per person keeps going up and up.  Part of this is because of regulations and insurance companies that make it difficult to impossible for someone to seek treatment modalities that don't involve medication.  If you have money you can afford alternative, more holistic approaches to pain.  If you don't, pop some pills

The other piece is social and cultural.  It has become a cultural norm that if you have pain the solution is to pop a pill.  We've become a people who have become very intolerable and inpatient to pain and discomfort.  Obviously, there are people who are in some very severe pain who need intervention in the form of medicines.  But I think there are also many instances where there are different ways to manage pain and discomfort that doesn't have to be in pill form.  But we're impatient and need immediate gratification. 

We need Facebook Pharma. 

http://www.alternet.org/drugs/152718/as_pill_abuse_and_deaths_intensified,_the_dea_boosted_painkiller_supply?page=2

Florida has been a bane on the rest of the country with it's "pill mills"

We have, admittedly, begun to come down on it very hard recently.

Except for that asshole, Rick Scott, vetoing that legislation for the database.

Hate that guy.

[East Coast Hustle]

Well, technically, when it is diverted it becomes part of the black market.  Unless of course people are giving it away for free when they divert it, which isn't likely since this stuff can get someone some significant cash. 

Well yeah, my point was more that the diversion isn't adding to the number of recreational marijuana smokers or the amount of recreational marijuana being smoked. And it's not like people are buying from dispensaries in bulk and reselling small bags on the street because the dispensaries don't give the price break for quantity that a black market dealer would, especially since many dispensaries price it by the gram no matter how much you buy. I can buy an ounce of the highest-grade pot available on the street for around $225. That same ounce in a dispensary costs $300+ which makes selling it for $40 an eighth (the going rate in the PNW - YMMV) pretty useless. And you can't even buy a QP or a pound from a dispensary. The diversion is almost strictly coming in the form of "hey, dude, mind picking me up some next time you go to the pot store?" and not in the form of furthering a commercial black market enterprise.

I disagree based upon the information from my sources. 

But I'm not going to get into an argument or debate on that. 

These sources are what I was looking for a link to. Unless these sources are just hearsay, in which case I'll be happy to dismiss them out of hand just as quickly as you do when presented with intimate and extensive first-hand knowledge of the subject at hand from a viewpoint that doesn't match your filters.

In fact, I'm beginning to suspect that you're just trolling. Either that or you're really painfully ignorant of the subject matter in a field in which you're supposed to be knowledgeable about. Makes no difference to me either way, but it's a shame that this sort of ignorance and misinformation is being foisted upon the next generation.

Also still waiting for a link that supports your assertion that doctors in Maine do, in fact, issue actual prescriptions for marijuana rather than just reccommendations. Put up or shut up.

[AFK]

No, because you are now conflating two issues.  One is my perception as to why the Obama administration is changing course and the other is about people selling their medical marijuana.

And I have no interest, nor time, to get steeped into another one of these pointless pissing matches.

I've got a drug collection to coordinate.