Measles Outbreak.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Oxford Don has regressive and antiquated views on women shocker.

Not that I'm suggesting Dawkins' views are in any way to do with the time-honoured tradition of undergrad students sleeping with professors in order to get better grades, but I am suggesting just that.

Also

While looking up fallacies, I found this: http://richarddawkins.net/discussions/641922-the-wtf-fallacy-and-others

which reminded me of how much I hate atheists, because they are such pompous dicks. If I was World Empress, I would get anti-vaccers, rabid atheists, Anarchists, and Libertarians together in a big catered conference and not let anyone leave until they reached consensus.

That's the whole thing. Atheists have been around for ages. If someone back in the 1970s said they were an atheist, it would probably just be left at that, and you'd file it away as an interesting fact about that person. The New Atheists though, make it an identity. They let it define them, and they will let you know how retarded you are for believing in magical Sky-Daddy.

Ok, maybe. But you don't have to be a dick about it. And making a career out of it just makes you an Evangelist.

One of the many reasons I loathe them is because they almost unfailingly sport the attitude that the mere fact that they are atheists automatically makes them smarter than everybody else. Gosh, maybe if they wielded that massive intellect to some other purpose than patting themselves on the back for not believing in something imaginary, they could actually accomplish something other than being divisive and making enemies.

Another reason I loathe them is because rabid atheists are exactly the same kind of people as rabid Christians, and in fact have a disturbing tendency to jump the fence from time to time.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ghIU_tlX0k

Actually the funny thing is I think Jasper had one of those moments here- I seem to recall him posting something to the effect of, "It pisses me off when theists say atheism is the same as fundamentalist religion. I'm starting to think that's because they may have a point."

[Prince Glittersnatch III]

Jesus fucking christ.  I had measles and mumps as a kid. It meant two weeks off school each time. BFD.

BFD for you, sure.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1712354/

Measles has caused millions of deaths since its emergence thousands of years ago, probably as a zoonosis [1]. Deaths from measles are due largely to an increased susceptibility to secondary bacterial and viral infections. This period of increased susceptibility lasts for several weeks to months after the onset of rash [2] and is attributed to a prolonged state of immune suppression. Most deaths associated with measles are due to pneumonia [3]. Although the global mortality from measles is falling [4], a new study in PLoS Medicine found that children in Nigeria, Niger, and Chad still recently faced unacceptably high mortality from measles [5], a largely preventable disease.

I guess the kids that die of it don't really count.

8 billion people the planet, untold abortions daily, untold starvation deaths every year, 241 measles deaths every year. Nah, not such a big deal at all.

How many deaths annually pre-vaccination?

I don't give a fuck about abortion, that's just a clump of cell tissue IMO. It's not a person.

The starvation is utterly unacceptable, and so is death from preventable disease like measles.

Nigeria, Niger and Chad have a very high annual rate of infant and child deaths. Measles is not the issue here.

Measles may not be THAT bad of a disease but as someone stated earlier, any preventable death is bad.

You have to look at it in context, this happened because parents refused to get vaccinations for Measles. What else did they refuse to vaccinate against? When will we be having polio outbreaks? When will kids start dying of the flu again?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

More to the point, telling people they are retarded for their beliefs doesn't actually shame them into thinking about it and perhaps abandoning their faith, if anything, it tends to make them more obstinate in their beliefs.

If you're looking to actually make people more secular and more rational in their daily lives, castigating them for being a dumb motherfucker isn't really going to work now, is it?

Exactly this. What they accomplish, other than smug self-satisfaction over embracing an identity that amounts to approximately the same degree of usefulness as refusing to believe that Skeletor rules the dark side of the moon, is to reinforce (and then patrol with guns) the border between religious and non-religious people. They serve exactly the same function as racists and homophobes, and I wonder whether, without the Dawkins-era atheists poking at them, Christian Fundamentalists would still feel so threatened that they would be pushing for their agendas to be heard in public schools? One is surely a reaction to the other, and the two opposing forces must, by nature, escalate in response to each other.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

More to the point, telling people they are retarded for their beliefs doesn't actually shame them into thinking about it and perhaps abandoning their faith, if anything, it tends to make them more obstinate in their beliefs.

If you're looking to actually make people more secular and more rational in their daily lives, castigating them for being a dumb motherfucker isn't really going to work now, is it?

Nothing makes you more sure about your position than perceived oppression.

[The Rev]

Jesus fucking christ.  I had measles and mumps as a kid. It meant two weeks off school each time. BFD.

Methinks, my dear Hawk, you were one of the lucky ones. 

And all your points about educating the public at large so that they don't inbreed, know proper hygeine and nutrition, know when to take advantage of FREE health care (in a large number of cases, vaccinations are free for MMR)...so very very valid.

To me, this all dovetails together into the same issue.  Education.

Those refusing the vaccine are sort of like those who believe in a flat earth.  Nice little belief in isolation, but really, where does it put you on the spectrum of reality?

At least one person didn't see what I was saying as criticism or being snarky, thank you Jenne.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Jesus fucking christ.  I had measles and mumps as a kid. It meant two weeks off school each time. BFD.

BFD for you, sure.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1712354/

Measles has caused millions of deaths since its emergence thousands of years ago, probably as a zoonosis [1]. Deaths from measles are due largely to an increased susceptibility to secondary bacterial and viral infections. This period of increased susceptibility lasts for several weeks to months after the onset of rash [2] and is attributed to a prolonged state of immune suppression. Most deaths associated with measles are due to pneumonia [3]. Although the global mortality from measles is falling [4], a new study in PLoS Medicine found that children in Nigeria, Niger, and Chad still recently faced unacceptably high mortality from measles [5], a largely preventable disease.

I guess the kids that die of it don't really count.

8 billion people the planet, untold abortions daily, untold starvation deaths every year, 241 measles deaths every year. Nah, not such a big deal at all.

How many deaths annually pre-vaccination?

I don't give a fuck about abortion, that's just a clump of cell tissue IMO. It's not a person.

The starvation is utterly unacceptable, and so is death from preventable disease like measles.

Nigeria, Niger and Chad have a very high annual rate of infant and child deaths. Measles is not the issue here.

Measles may not be THAT bad of a disease but as someone stated earlier, any preventable death is bad.

You have to look at it in context, this happened because parents refused to get vaccinations for Measles. What else did they refuse to vaccinate against? When will we be having polio outbreaks? When will kids start dying of the flu again?

Also, with 8 billion people on the planet, WITHOUT measles vaccination, the annual deaths from measles would be in the millions. The reason there are only 241 measles deaths per year is BECAUSE OF VACCINATION. This should not have to be said, but apparently it does.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Jesus fucking christ.  I had measles and mumps as a kid. It meant two weeks off school each time. BFD.

Methinks, my dear Hawk, you were one of the lucky ones. 

And all your points about educating the public at large so that they don't inbreed, know proper hygeine and nutrition, know when to take advantage of FREE health care (in a large number of cases, vaccinations are free for MMR)...so very very valid.

To me, this all dovetails together into the same issue.  Education.

Those refusing the vaccine are sort of like those who believe in a flat earth.  Nice little belief in isolation, but really, where does it put you on the spectrum of reality?

At least one person didn't see what I was saying as criticism or being snarky, thank you Jenne.

If almost everyone perceives a comment as being critical or snarky, odds are it's got something to do with the way you presented it. "Jesus fucking christ.  I had measles and mumps as a kid. It meant two weeks off school each time. BFD." comes off as pretty critical and snarky, IMO. And you did then go on to further criticize the importance of vaccination, which reinforced that perception.

[The Rev]

Jesus fucking christ.  I had measles and mumps as a kid. It meant two weeks off school each time. BFD.

Methinks, my dear Hawk, you were one of the lucky ones. 

And all your points about educating the public at large so that they don't inbreed, know proper hygeine and nutrition, know when to take advantage of FREE health care (in a large number of cases, vaccinations are free for MMR)...so very very valid.

To me, this all dovetails together into the same issue.  Education.

Those refusing the vaccine are sort of like those who believe in a flat earth.  Nice little belief in isolation, but really, where does it put you on the spectrum of reality?

At least one person didn't see what I was saying as criticism or being snarky, thank you Jenne.

If almost everyone perceives a comment as being critical or snarky, odds are it's got something to do with the way you presented it. "Jesus fucking christ.  I had measles and mumps as a kid. It meant two weeks off school each time. BFD." comes off as pretty critical and snarky, IMO. And you did then go on to further criticize the importance of vaccination, which reinforced that perception.

WHATEVER YOU SAY.

[Jenne]

Jesus fucking christ.  I had measles and mumps as a kid. It meant two weeks off school each time. BFD.

Methinks, my dear Hawk, you were one of the lucky ones. 

And all your points about educating the public at large so that they don't inbreed, know proper hygeine and nutrition, know when to take advantage of FREE health care (in a large number of cases, vaccinations are free for MMR)...so very very valid.

To me, this all dovetails together into the same issue.  Education.

Those refusing the vaccine are sort of like those who believe in a flat earth.  Nice little belief in isolation, but really, where does it put you on the spectrum of reality?

At least one person didn't see what I was saying as criticism or being snarky, thank you Jenne.

 

My thinking is thus:  there's so many facets as to why the sort of reasoning  that vaccinations aren't necessary amongst those of a rich, 1st world country is badwrong...it's marking a time in our history where, despite having all facts pointing to its logic, folks are willing to take a stand against worldwide inoculation SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY CAN.

I think that's what it comes down to.

THEY DISLIKE BEING TOLD BY GOVERNMENT WHAT THEY SHOULD DO. 

It's why the HPV vaccine, which the CDC just recommended for boys even though  many pediatricians have been recommending it for them already since it came out, has had such a hard time getting traction.  Folks are thinking about the wrong end of the spectrum and telling themselves "I get my kid vaccinated, s/he'll think they can go out and fuck like bunnies."

Instead of the way the CDC is looking at it, which is: "We get these boys and girls vacc'd NOW, and 30-40 years down the line they won't have cancer!"

Again, the dumbass American public is seeing this as a parents' rights issue (same with the MMR vaccine), and not a "we the people are grateful that we can finally fight diseases that other governments around the world cannot afford to or can't be arsed to deal with in the midst of their military coups."

I know TL, DR, but that's sorta how I see it.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I can kinda see that.

It does give me a vague idea of how to use conspiracy theory to maybe combat this. Such as put the idea out there that the anti-vaccine movement is part of the NWO agenda to reduce the human population without getting blood on its hands. Let the people choose to get sick and die sort of thing.

[The Rev]

Jesus fucking christ.  I had measles and mumps as a kid. It meant two weeks off school each time. BFD.

Methinks, my dear Hawk, you were one of the lucky ones. 

And all your points about educating the public at large so that they don't inbreed, know proper hygeine and nutrition, know when to take advantage of FREE health care (in a large number of cases, vaccinations are free for MMR)...so very very valid.

To me, this all dovetails together into the same issue.  Education.

Those refusing the vaccine are sort of like those who believe in a flat earth.  Nice little belief in isolation, but really, where does it put you on the spectrum of reality?

At least one person didn't see what I was saying as criticism or being snarky, thank you Jenne.

 

My thinking is thus:  there's so many facets as to why the sort of reasoning  that vaccinations aren't necessary amongst those of a rich, 1st world country is badwrong...it's marking a time in our history where, despite having all facts pointing to its logic, folks are willing to take a stand against worldwide inoculation SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY CAN.

I think that's what it comes down to.

THEY DISLIKE BEING TOLD BY GOVERNMENT WHAT THEY SHOULD DO. 

It's why the HPV vaccine, which the CDC just recommended for boys even though  many pediatricians have been recommending it for them already since it came out, has had such a hard time getting traction.  Folks are thinking about the wrong end of the spectrum and telling themselves "I get my kid vaccinated, s/he'll think they can go out and fuck like bunnies."

Instead of the way the CDC is looking at it, which is: "We get these boys and girls vacc'd NOW, and 30-40 years down the line they won't have cancer!"

Again, the dumbass American public is seeing this as a parents' rights issue (same with the MMR vaccine), and not a "we the people are grateful that we can finally fight diseases that other governments around the world cannot afford to or can't be arsed to deal with in the midst of their military coups."

I know TL, DR, but that's sorta how I see it.

Almost all of the kids I grew up with had both measles and mumps, with some good old scarlet fever thrown in for good measure. Farm people just didn't go to the doctor then if they could help it. Granny had stuff she used.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Jesus fucking christ.  I had measles and mumps as a kid. It meant two weeks off school each time. BFD.

Methinks, my dear Hawk, you were one of the lucky ones. 

And all your points about educating the public at large so that they don't inbreed, know proper hygeine and nutrition, know when to take advantage of FREE health care (in a large number of cases, vaccinations are free for MMR)...so very very valid.

To me, this all dovetails together into the same issue.  Education.

Those refusing the vaccine are sort of like those who believe in a flat earth.  Nice little belief in isolation, but really, where does it put you on the spectrum of reality?

At least one person didn't see what I was saying as criticism or being snarky, thank you Jenne.

 

My thinking is thus:  there's so many facets as to why the sort of reasoning  that vaccinations aren't necessary amongst those of a rich, 1st world country is badwrong...it's marking a time in our history where, despite having all facts pointing to its logic, folks are willing to take a stand against worldwide inoculation SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY CAN.

I think that's what it comes down to.

THEY DISLIKE BEING TOLD BY GOVERNMENT WHAT THEY SHOULD DO. 

It's why the HPV vaccine, which the CDC just recommended for boys even though  many pediatricians have been recommending it for them already since it came out, has had such a hard time getting traction.  Folks are thinking about the wrong end of the spectrum and telling themselves "I get my kid vaccinated, s/he'll think they can go out and fuck like bunnies."

Instead of the way the CDC is looking at it, which is: "We get these boys and girls vacc'd NOW, and 30-40 years down the line they won't have cancer!"

Again, the dumbass American public is seeing this as a parents' rights issue (same with the MMR vaccine), and not a "we the people are grateful that we can finally fight diseases that other governments around the world cannot afford to or can't be arsed to deal with in the midst of their military coups."

I know TL, DR, but that's sorta how I see it.

The irony being that a great many of these people are the same ones pushing for the government to tell other people what to do, as long as it's in line with their religious beliefs.

[Jenne]

Almost all of the kids I grew up with had both measles and mumps, with some good old scarlet fever thrown in for good measure. Farm people just didn't go to the doctor then if they could help it. Granny had stuff she used.

I'd wager that a lot of those communities saw things that we won't ever see again (like typhus, polio, etc.) because we live cleaner (despite every GFUCKINGD GOP'er thinking the EPA is a waste of taxpayer $) lives...

Country/folk remedies were used because the western medicine model has always been weak in the farm states...still is, if you want to know the truth--same with education.

I wouldn't want to go back to those times just because of the level of mutual understanding between strangers was just so very low...again, a deepening of experience that only happens when you 1) travel a lot or 2) get educated.  That, and women were basically treated like shit and minorities--forget about it.

Moving forward, and yes, I still believe we primates can move forward in some manner, the anit-vacc crowd represents self-actuation gone awry.  I want those middle class, white mothers (and I believe that's the demographic we're talking about, here) to take that initiative and do something HELPFUL and not WRONGFUL for society.  Fucking stage picket lines outside Congress for more library time/openings, write letters about the closures of parks...do something other than moving our hairless ape selves BACK through time...I don't want to ride a fucking dinosaur.

And I don't want my unborn child exposed to shit that mutated because some bitch was too uppity to get her kid a shot in the arm.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

BACK IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS, MAN. MOTHERS DRANK AND SMOKED THROUGH THEIR PREGNANCIES AND KIDS NEVER WORE SEAT BELTS AND BABIES JUST RODE IN THEY MAMMA'S LAP, WE WOULD JUST RUN AROUND ALL DAY UNSUPERVISED AND SWIM IN THE RIVER AND WE ALL GOT MEASLES, MUMPS, RUBELLA, CHICKEN POX, SMALLPOX, YELLOW FEVER, DENGUE FEVER, AND MALARIA AND WE ALL TURNED OUT JUST FINE. NO BABIES WERE EVER LOW BIRTH WEIGHT OR STILLBORN AND NOBODY EVER DIED OF CONTUSIONS AFTER A CAR ACCIDENT AND THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS CRIB DEATH AND NONE OF US EVER DROWNED OR WERE KIDNAPPED OR RAPED, THAT'S JUST THE WAY THINGS WERE BACK IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS WHEN PEOPLE WERE TOUGHER.