I Lost My Cool...Forgive Me...You are Forgiven

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

I don't evangelize as a general rule. But seriously lost my fucking cool at some small inconsequential FB political group I hadn't bothered to delete (because I had ignored basically since I joined)

Why: I mean other than daring to pop back in here and take a glance at the quality of "discussion"? Well here we go. You guys are still actually ceding points which is good. Minimal, but good. Elsewhere I followed a 60 comment thread that was started when someone posted a picture with factually inaccurate information ie: this picture was taken at this place at this time and is of these people. All of that information was false, it was shown to be false in the thread, and the next 60 posts (and 60 was just all I read) consisted of a gang fight over whether factual information was a matter of opinion. "You're not going to change my mind on this." "That doesn't change the fact that you're wrong." "I'm not wrong I just happen to think differently." By any standard definition that was mental illness. I only read 60 of the probably endless posts because I started crying and had to stop (true facts). It hurt me.

Slippery slope? Nope. Forgetting for a moment the ridiculous amounts of ad-hominem that happens in this group, there are specific examples: Actually, not going to get into the actual text because that would be calling people out, and that comes later with specific articles...you've been warned. The example I just read was I have position A but because of position B I'm forced to apply position C to this case. It was then demonstrated that position B was false and that point was ceded and that was GLORIOUS, because rational human beings are just that, GLORIOUS. Except that the statement that ceded position B then went on to say, but I still stand by my original position C because D. AAAAAAAAUGH! This will not stand. Okay, a little overblown. It's an unfortunately common thing we do and I'll get to the reasons of that but for now, lest I lose you in words before I can put an important question to all of you:
*****************************************************************
Each person in this group must ask themselves:
1. Would I rather be right, or would I rather be honest?
2. Is it better to hold my ground, or to be sane?
3. (caps here, cause it's big) DO I WANT TO WIN, OR DO I WANT TO SURVIVE?
******************************************************************

And that's not hyperbolic. Look deep, deep at the other side's biases for a minutes. See how completely irrational they appear? See how based on fear, or hatred or contempt, rather than reason, they seem to be? Could yours, without your biases, be just as over the top, or maybe moreso?

About me and why I'm saying this. I'm fully delusional/dissociative. It's a mental illness and I do suffer from it. What it means is that I hallucinate through all senses and often am unable to differentiate between what is hallucination and what is real. I understand what is happening because certain "familiar" hallucinations I experience by sense as real, but by reason I know them to be hallucinations. Think, a fully immersive simulator ride. All of your senses are telling you this is real, but you don't accept it as real because you rationally know it's a ride. I don't always know it's a ride. I am seeing many people here and everywhere taking many rides and fully ignorant of the fact that they are on a ride.

At this point in history, the amount of information we are taking in, while we have not looked at how we are taking it in has served one purpose and one purpose only--to make us more secure in our own beliefs. That's it. It hasn't opened us up to new information and new conclusions, it's just pulled us further and further into the dangerous, and yes, INSANE, notion that what we think defines reality and not the other way around. Now look around you. This is not pitching horse-shoes. This is not a football game where the Broncos should always win because every other team is evil THIS IS REAL LIFE. The decisions being made in the political arena are effecting all of us, directly, and things are not near as stable as they have been, and sooner or later, if the center of rationality and common interest keeps dissolving, we are going to come to arms, we are going to sink ourselves. You guys call each other jackasses and get frustrated that you're not being heard. I've been around this great big FB place (on the same journey that led me to the thread I cried about) and I saw hatred, deep seated, call to arms, hatred in an abundance. Knowing how easy it would be for me to give myself over to a belief that actually painted devils and created a need to go after them, it's real easy for me to spot it in others when I see it. It's not predisposition, either. I wasn't always here (not significantly more so than anybody else, anyways). I got here, by forcing it on myself to a certain extent. By taking the belief that what I think is reality and running it all the way down until it broke loose. I did it consciously, Everybody who I've read more than 10 posts by in this group is currently doing it unconsciously (and that's very few of you so don't get all uptight, sheesh). The prevalent trend in media and political discourse, is making it happen nationally by an overwhelming majority.

Let this sink in--we are all going insane...literally (well you all are, I'm already there...and it sucks)

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Amen, brother.

Believe it or not, this is one of the reasons I troll. Picking a position that I find false and/or ludicrous and then DEFENDING IT TO THE DEATH is a good exercise in recognizing and preventing that kind of self-reinforcing rigidity and closed-mindedness.

What you're writing is especially interesting because I was recently accused of being wishy-washy because I accepted new information and changed my mind about something. That was actually seen as a flaw, for some reason... apparently our culture sees it as a character flaw if you listen to and accept new information as valid and change your position accordingly, instead of digging your heels in and screeching louder.

This is, IMO, a Very Bad Thing.

[Phox]

Nigel has the right of it.

It's insane how often people criticize each other for having a legitimate debate. Screaming matches are preferred and a person who changes their beliefs is considered to be weak.

What a wonderful, fantastic world we live in. That sort of behavior doesn't make me want to harm people at all, no.

[The Wizard Joseph]

*****************************************************************
Each person in this group must ask themselves:
1. Would I rather be right, or would I rather be honest?
2. Is it better to hold my ground, or to be sane?
3. (caps here, cause it's big) DO I WANT TO WIN, OR DO I WANT TO SURVIVE?
******************************************************************

Greetings NoLeDeMiel.

I was interested by this post and looked back through your history so far.  You seem pretty together in general and I'd like to get to know you a bit.

As for the three questions you posted, they seem tricky to me.  Most either/or questions do.

1.  Would I rather be right, or would I rather be honest?

I've met plenty of people that are honest and delusional.  Does this mean they're wrong?  Is it possible to be right and dishonest?  I think yes to both.  I have been honest with myself enough to know that I'm frequently wrong about what I think I know.  I'm of the opinion that an honest person that is wrong is a threat because earnest expression is often confused for correctness when there's no measurable way to readily show something is wrong.  People that are right and dishonest worry me more.  The truth is power.  Hiding it and telling lies is a means to control others.  I would conclude that a person MUST be both honest and right for there to be any virtue in it.
Perhaps the question could be "Have I been both right and honest?"

2.  Is it better to hold my ground, or to be sane?

Again, it would seem to me that a person must have both to gain any lasting benefit from either.  A clear and rational mind will know "when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em."  Also, what good is "sanity" if the sane mind will not stand up and resist the madness around it?  Being a sane coward seems like far less fun than being a stubborn mad man.  Maybe it's possible to be so sane that you have no shame and realize there's no such thing as cowardice.  If that's the case, I've never seen it in myself.  I'm way too proud to constantly run away.  I do try not to be a fool and butt unnecessary heads.

3.   Do I want to win, or do I want to survive?

There are ways to win in death. You won't be around to savor it, but if a conflict can only be resolved through means that prove fatal then so it goes.  Better be REALLY sure that the outcome means that much to you though.  There are also lots of instances where a person loses, then dies.  This is a big chunk of comedy as long as it wasn't you.  Perhaps the only worthy middle ground is not to win or lose at all. You survive by perpetually seeking neither glory for yourself nor ruin for some enemy.  Play for the sake of playing or some such thing.

About me and why I'm saying this. I'm fully delusional/dissociative. It's a mental illness and I do suffer from it. What it means is that I hallucinate through all senses and often am unable to differentiate between what is hallucination and what is real. I understand what is happening because certain "familiar" hallucinations I experience by sense as real, but by reason I know them to be hallucinations. Think, a fully immersive simulator ride. All of your senses are telling you this is real, but you don't accept it as real because you rationally know it's a ride. I don't always know it's a ride. I am seeing many people here and everywhere taking many rides and fully ignorant of the fact that they are on a ride.

You must be familiar with Bill Hicks.  You had mentioned in a previous post that you were into comedy, so I think it likely.  If not, there you go.  Hope you dig him.  I do not know what sort of delusion s you suffer from, but I can definitely relate.  I have the sort of bi-polar disorder that rarely gets depressive.  I flicker upward into manias that can be truly delusional if left un-checked.  I also had a strongly fundamentalist Christian upbringing and have been fascinated by the mysteries and those that practice them for most of my life.  In the end I required medicine.  Only after I had stabilized was I finally able to see that the things I was fascinated by were self-producing.  The only remaining mystery for me is why we got so deluded as a species, and I as an individual, in the first place.  May I ask how you came by your delusions and of their nature sir?

At this point in history, the amount of information we are taking in, while we have not looked at how we are taking it in has served one purpose and one purpose only--to make us more secure in our own beliefs¹. That's it. It hasn't opened us up to new information and new conclusions, it's just pulled us further and further into the dangerous, and yes, INSANE, notion that what we think defines reality and not the other way around. Now look around you. This is not pitching horse-shoes. This is not a football game where the Broncos should always win because every other team is evil THIS IS REAL LIFE. The decisions being made in the political arena are effecting all of us, directly, and things are not near as stable as they have been, and sooner or later, if the center of rationality and common interest keeps dissolving, we are going to come to arms, we are going to sink ourselves. You guys call each other jackasses and get frustrated that you're not being heard. I've been around this great big FB place (on the same journey that led me to the thread I cried about) and I saw hatred, deep seated, call to arms, hatred in an abundance. Knowing how easy it would be for me to give myself over to a belief that actually painted devils and created a need to go after them, it's real easy for me to spot it in others when I see it. It's not predisposition, either. I wasn't always here (not significantly more so than anybody else, anyways). I got here, by forcing it on myself to a certain extent. By taking the belief that what I think is reality and running it all the way down until it broke loose. I did it consciously, Everybody who I've read more than 10 posts by in this group is currently doing it unconsciously (and that's very few of you so don't get all uptight, sheesh). The prevalent trend in media and political discourse, is making it happen nationally by an overwhelming majority.

Let this sink in--we are all going insane...literally (well you all are, I'm already there...and it sucks)

¹ This benefits those that make their fortunes setting fanatics against each other.  It will get worse and may never get better I think.

For me the big question is whether or not this set of circumstances was set in to motion by a group of persons with intent or not.  It's academic at this point though.  If all of this ignorance, hate, apathy, and need for groups that accept and groups to antagonize rose up on it's own, then I guess it was inevitable.  If it was the result of intentional manipulation down the centuries of "civilisation," then I'd say it's no longer controllable by those that may have had a hand in starting it.   

I no longer care.  Seeking the truth of it is pointless and wasted energy and time I'm going to need for my own projects. 

I also enjoy public performance.   You may be interested in the great stuffs contributed to this place and kept in the Multimedia Menace section.  I think that sooner or later Discordianism will hit the popular culture like a tsunami and be taken as a joke by the majority of those exposed to it.  I hope to help make that happen with projects of my own because the world needs a good laugh at a joke meaningful enough to make them shut up and think for a while after the spasms of joy are over with.  That and a good lay.

[Icey]

"DO I WANT TO WIN, OR DO I WANT TO SURVIVE?"


That's getting stored away in my brain-archive of powerful quotes.

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

Amen, brother.

Believe it or not, this is one of the reasons I troll. Picking a position that I find false and/or ludicrous and then DEFENDING IT TO THE DEATH is a good exercise in recognizing and preventing that kind of self-reinforcing rigidity and closed-mindedness.

What you're writing is especially interesting because I was recently accused of being wishy-washy because I accepted new information and changed my mind about something. That was actually seen as a flaw, for some reason... apparently our culture sees it as a character flaw if you listen to and accept new information as valid and change your position accordingly, instead of digging your heels in and screeching louder.

This is, IMO, a Very Bad Thing.

Aaah the old scatological gambit. If you ain't somethin, your nothin. And if your nothin,
you ain't shit.

I don't wanna be shit. So that works.

Only an effective ploy against people who are innately suspicious of the obvious.

[Roly Poly Oly-Garch]

Greetings NoLeDeMiel.

I was interested by this post and looked back through your history so far.  You seem pretty together in general and I'd like to get to know you a bit.

As for the three questions you posted, they seem tricky to me.  Most either/or questions do.

1.  Would I rather be right, or would I rather be honest?

I've met plenty of people that are honest and delusional.  Does this mean they're wrong?  Is it possible to be right and dishonest?  I think yes to both.  I have been honest with myself enough to know that I'm frequently wrong about what I think I know.  I'm of the opinion that an honest person that is wrong is a threat because earnest expression is often confused for correctness when there's no measurable way to readily show something is wrong.  People that are right and dishonest worry me more.  The truth is power.  Hiding it and telling lies is a means to control others.  I would conclude that a person MUST be both honest and right for there to be any virtue in it.
Perhaps the question could be "Have I been both right and honest?"

There was much more to this posting than just this bit I put here. It was meant to be informative more than anything, but first I had to get the FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS DECENT AND HOLY, out of my system. These are definitely not meaningful dichotomies without the specifics that I plucked from what I shall from this point on refer to as "The Board That Really Shouldn't Have Made Me Twitch, But It Did, So Now I Must LOUD ABOUT IT." Or "Yiff-Space" for short. The specifics here were in an if A and B then C, where B's proven false, it's 'dishonest' to concede B in the same sentence you say, but I stand by C because, as I stated, D.

2.  Is it better to hold my ground, or to be sane?

Again, it would seem to me that a person must have both to gain any lasting benefit from either.  A clear and rational mind will know "when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em."  Also, what good is "sanity" if the sane mind will not stand up and resist the madness around it?  Being a sane coward seems like far less fun than being a stubborn mad man.  Maybe it's possible to be so sane that you have no shame and realize there's no such thing as cowardice.  If that's the case, I've never seen it in myself.  I'm way too proud to constantly run away.  I do try not to be a fool and butt unnecessary heads.

There's not any benefit to insanity.  I'm not really following the rest because it doesn't seem to quite hit the context. Plus the "insanity" in quotes thing is not at all where I was going (and definitely not how I use it).

What I was saying is that the second we draw a conclusion about something, is the second the something itself becomes a little more transparent and the conclusion a little more solid. That's where holding your ground or sanity comes in. Holding your ground means approaching each new piece of information predisposed to maintaining the conclusion. If the information is favorable, incorporate it, conclusion becomes more solid, something more transparent. If the information is unfavorable, defend against it, incorporate the defense, conclusion becomes more solid, something more transparent. Do it enough you perceive the conclusion much more clearly than the something. Problem is reality is a fuck-face who isn't concerned at all about our not wanting to be disillusioned, so it's filled with all these somethings that don't work with our conclusion/something, so reality itself becomes a threat. That's pretty much the last rest stop between here and oblivion. Had a conclusion, it was a pretty and swell and very loved conclusion, I'm sure gonna miss snuggling with it at night, but it's gotta go because it doesn't fit. -OR- ...

"Hello, and thank you for joining us on the doomed voyage of the Good Ship FollyRot. First off we'd like to congratulate you on winning at reality and remind you that the position of your tray tables is of no consequence as they will be annihilated momentarily along with the rest of your synthetically constructed reality. If you experience a slight-overwhelming shattering sensation, please do not be alarmed, that's only the sudden, horrifying and inescapable conclusion that, OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE! With any luck you should be able to reconstruct a workable facsimile of a human psyche upon reentry into consensus reality, via the faculties of a catatonic shell staring off into absolute non-existence. Feel free to carry with you any non-synthetic souvenirs you've acquired on this journey, and remember that rational attempts to explain them will lead you right back to us. Enjoy your descent Captain, and Welcome to Hell!"

Not really any lasting benefits. Even IF reconstruction is possible, there's bound to be some pieces missing and the compromised structural integrity means that every time Evil Emperor Fractal Fuck makes his presence known things feel terrifyingly brittle. It doesn't mean going ape-shit when someone pisses you off. That's just a bucket of rad-pants and maybe a scar or two to show off.

3.   Do I want to win, or do I want to survive?

Perhaps the only worthy middle ground is not to win or lose at all. You survive by perpetually seeking neither glory for yourself nor ruin for some enemy.  Play for the sake of playing or some such thing.

BINGO! Play to play, play to get better. In argument, play to remove doubt. I have had few more fulfilling experiences than a particular usenet discussion where I got mightily full of myself, boiled down a huge issue to a discernible, logically sound choke point (I love choke points) and then used a single fact to choke off a good dozen arguments, using a more pompous, victorious and detestable tone in each progressive snuffing. You may crown me now. I am in fact the king. Game over. Usenet has a champion.

Thing is, I was wrong. My fact was incorrect. Dude returned the favor, and de-snuffed each and every argument with an ever flat, rational and conclusive tone. It was seriously the most beautiful thing I had ever laid eyes on in all of usenetdom EVER. It wasn't humiliating...humbling yes, but too correct, too obliterating to be humiliating. If someone's ego could stand up and try to make any case after something like that, well that is a species fail. Sure he hadn't proven anything, only destroyed my conclusion which reopened the questions, but I was awe-struck. I was thoroughly owned in research, dispassionately bitch-slapped by truth, and all I had left to say was, "FABULOUS". Everyone should be so blessed to enjoy an experience like that, but it's only possible outside the attachment to winning. When playing's the thing we get better at the game. When the situation is critical and all current solutions are insufficient, winning, opposes surviving.

You must be familiar with Bill Hicks.  You had mentioned in a previous post that you were into comedy, so I think it likely.  If not, there you go.  Hope you dig him.  I do not know what sort of delusion s you suffer from, but I can definitely relate.  I have the sort of bi-polar disorder that rarely gets depressive.  I flicker upward into manias that can be truly delusional if left un-checked.  I also had a strongly fundamentalist Christian upbringing and have been fascinated by the mysteries and those that practice them for most of my life.  In the end I required medicine.  Only after I had stabilized was I finally able to see that the things I was fascinated by were self-producing.  The only remaining mystery for me is why we got so deluded as a species, and I as an individual, in the first place.  May I ask how you came by your delusions and of their nature sir?

Tough to answer. I can remember when I was first able to differentiate between genders, and the memory of something being there and then being replaced by something else was more than a little jarring for the 18-month-old mind. That made all my perceptions from that point on seem pretty suspect. Took it as matter-of fact as children do until I went and got Catholicized, and I don't mean that filthy pretender the Irish use try to fit in, I'm talking about the full blown Mexi-Cath-Pagan hybrid with the Santos of this that and the other, folk tale spinning, milagro confirming, La Virgen pleading, Devil is hanging out right down on the corner but it's okay to shoot pool with him so long as you got your hand on the bible and a Saint Peter Medallion around your neck, all encompassing if you can think it, see it, feel it, fight it or fuck it it's all right here world view. Pretty much helped me overcome my lack of need to obsess over my own thoughts, panic to the point of losing touch with my senses and in every way dissociate from reality. Then the drugs and the hippie wake-me-up books and the "covenish" thingies and, well, the boring details beyond that are pretty much summed up above. Fairly sure that in communal head-fuck rituals, the sharing of sacred dildos is by far and away the number one disease vector throughout all of creation (or as the heathens call it, "just some kind of accident or something").

¹ This benefits those that make their fortunes setting fanatics against each other.  It will get worse and may never get better I think.

For me the big question is whether or not this set of circumstances was set in to motion by a group of persons with intent or not.  It's academic at this point though.  If all of this ignorance, hate, apathy, and need for groups that accept and groups to antagonize rose up on it's own, then I guess it was inevitable.  If it was the result of intentional manipulation down the centuries of "civilisation," then I'd say it's no longer controllable by those that may have had a hand in starting it.  

I no longer care.  Seeking the truth of it is pointless and wasted energy and time I'm going to need for my own projects.  

I also enjoy public performance.   You may be interested in the great stuffs contributed to this place and kept in the Multimedia Menace section.  I think that sooner or later Discordianism will hit the popular culture like a tsunami and be taken as a joke by the majority of those exposed to it.  I hope to help make that happen with projects of my own because the world needs a good laugh at a joke meaningful enough to make them shut up and think for a while after the spasms of joy are over with.  That and a good lay.

I've fabricated some pretty strong evidence that my downfall was a conspiracy between Leonardo DiCaprio and some shadowy figures that have been hiding out aboard the mothership. Thing is Leo knew that that Hollywood thing was my Karma and he was actually meant to be a lunch lady in Wichita. He basically got jealous because some guys have all the luck so he decoded the not yet written Dan Brown novels and figured out that the secret currency of shadowy figures hiding out aboard the mother ship is actually oreos. OREOS! Who fucking knew? Nabisco...I never would have suspected them, but I said it, it must be true. Anyways, he paid those things off in sandwich cookie so they would use their phase shifty gizmos, mind control rays, crummy rave music and drug trafficking routes to distract me for a few years while "Leo" gently nudged me out of my rightful existence. Jokes on him though, because A: Fame sucks. Any true high-wickedness monkey-fun requires anonymity. B: He's got nerd-shoes because the whole mother-ship thing was dead in the 90's. How dated is that? and C: When MY horrible attempts at performing with a dialect are put on display it's in front of a couple hundred people in a community theatre production, not the whole fucking world in Gangs of New York.

But yeah, I like to keep my ass off giving 2 or 3 fucks about who's behind my friends getting just enough of a clue to find Alex Jones and cease all thought immediately. I can give 2 fucks occasionally but 3 is always over the top. Giving that many fucks means I get fucked, and I'd really rather have a good hate rant than sympathy yawn.

Good to meet ya, BTW...and no, no Lithium was harmed in the composition of this travesty.