No wonder young girls don't get into science.

[Reginald Ret]

Wow, you equate "less responsible" with "less human"?

So to you, a child is less of a person than an adult?

You use quotes but Regret never said "less human".

> I hold children to be less responsible for their actions so in effect i consider them less than adults.

doesn't mean

> I hold children to be less responsible for their actions so in effect i consider them less human than adults.

It's probably a language thing, because I can see how that would look that way in English, but makes complete sense in Dutch (and I like children and see them as persons ). Dunno how to say it in English actually, "less important than adults" is also not quite right. I'm gonna leave it to Regret to clarify what adjective should go there, he knows best what he wanted to communicate.



But Regret, I do think this example is crazyweirdconfusing:

According to the 'children are highly intelligent animals that will turn into humans later' position the choice is also easy: the mother has priority and the mothers says save the child. If you have any respect for the mother as a human you respect her decision and save the child.

Because this isn't at all a clear-cut decision.

For example, in the case where you have to choose between a dog-owner and her highly intelligent dog. Or even better, make it a pig because they're smarter than dogs.

Or is it the "will turn into a human later" element?

I still think it's a stupid point of view, because even if "children are hightly intelligent animals that will turn into humans later" IN SOME SENSE, that doesn't make them any less of a person.

Since the topic was whether children were fully human, or are merely potential humans, and he seems to be arguing on  the "potential humans" side, he needs to clarify if that was not what he meant.

Yeah that was a really REALLY BAD EXAMPLE i used there. It gave exactly the impression i was trying to reject.
I think the main confusion here comes from conflating inherent value and context dependent value. Of course children have the same inherent value all humans have, It is only when dealing with them, ie. interacting with them, that I need a way of admitting the differences. Maybe this example gives greater clarity(this may backfire again, I am quite aware of my lack of metaphorical skill):
Bungeejumping. Would you let a child decide on their own wether bungeejumping is a good idea?
No. Of course not. You defer to the opinion of the parents/guardians.

That is what i was trying to convey, and what i think many who are, upon speaking about this, often seen as pedosociopaths* child-specific sociopaths. Children are by definition less capable of being adults than adults are, but this is not a bad thing. It is just something that i feel i need to remind myself of every once in a while, so i don't start having unrealistic expectations.

*damn, that word sounds icky (for obvious reasons), please forgive me for not fully deleting this but i just had to share this linguistic monstrosity  i kinda nauseated myself there.

PS i think i figured out why i used that horrible example: I was raised to respect all animals and i grew up as the equal of my pet(in my eyes only, i think it may have weirded out my mom that I treated my dog as a complete equal) I know that is not normally consider healthy but i am who i am and i won't apologize for loving my dog as a brother.
Hmm interesting parallel: My brother and my dog both did their best to be as disgusting as possible, protected me when i got into trouble, tried to steal my cookies/cake/candy/dessert and regularly destroyed my stuff for no good reason.
That's no excuse though, and i thank Nigel for challenging me on the subject and Trip for explaining the cultural and lingual differences without letting me get away with this shit. The combination of 'Dude, wtf is this shit. Explain yourself!' and 'he may have meant it differently, but since he said it so outlandishly stupid He can explain himself first, and i'll reserve judgement until then' Is exactly what dense people (like me) need in such a situation.

...
I can't get over what a bad example i chose.  
Oh man, please mock my horrible examples whenever possible, I should never forget this kind of fail.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm glad you explained and clarified.

[Triple Zero]

So, what you're saying is that if a child wants to bungee-jump, the bungee-jumping-facility operator should defer to the opinion of the parents/guardians, but if it was a dog, they can just strap it to a rubber band and throw it down a cliff?? That's sick, man. I'd give you the benefit of the doubt, but there's just no other way I can read your example than that you're basically advocating throwing puppies down a cliff.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

So, what you're saying is that if a child wants to bungee-jump, the bungee-jumping-facility operator should defer to the opinion of the parents/guardians, but if it was a dog, they can just strap it to a rubber band and throw it down a cliff?? That's sick, man. I'd give you the benefit of the doubt, but there's just no other way I can read your example than that you're basically advocating throwing puppies down a cliff.

[Reginald Ret]

So, what you're saying is that if a child wants to bungee-jump, the bungee-jumping-facility operator should defer to the opinion of the parents/guardians, but if it was a dog, they can just strap it to a rubber band and throw it down a cliff?? That's sick, man. I'd give you the benefit of the doubt, but there's just no other way I can read your example than that you're basically advocating throwing puppies down a cliff.

Hey! I'm just supporting the troops here man! Why do you hate America^TM?