Prostitution & feminism

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I've never paid for sex and never intend to. For me it's more about the connection than the physical sensation anyways, and you can't buy connection.

I don't have any problem with people who pay for it, or who get paid for it, they just enjoy a different part of sex than I do.  I don't think a john is anti-feminist, but I do think that sex with someone who pays for sex might not be very satisfying for me, or for anyone for whom that connection is a vital part of it all.

And for you, there's always the morgue.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Seems to me that prostitution would be just as empowering as, say, selling plasma.

[Eater of Clowns]

Hey, man, nobody's asking you to do it.

Plus we all know you'd charge by the hair and frankly, there isn't enough money in the Federal Reserve.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Hey, man, nobody's asking you to do it.

Plus we all know you'd charge by the hair and frankly, there isn't enough money in the Federal Reserve.

Fuck that.  The only currency I would accept would be human organs.  The depravity of the act in question would dictate the importance of the organ. 

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Seems to me that prostitution would be just as empowering as, say, selling plasma.

I am gradually growing to seriously question the "Sex work as empowerment" rhetoric that has been emerging in recent years. I understand the idea of reclaiming and taking power over sex work rather than being subjugated, and I understand the idea of gaining a sense of empowerment over a previously injured sense of sexuality, but I also think that sex-as-commodity is an inherently harmful way of thinking about it.

But I fap to porn.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Anyone who thinks your view is "anti-feminist" is a narrow-viewed fuck and I would personally limit my exposure to said person.  I don't have a problem with prostitution, but I do have a problem with human slavery, and like you mention Nigel, in a lot of countries these women are not in it for the lulz.

Hoopla! I love your straight-shooting answers. You don't post enough!

[Elder Iptuous]

are male escorts seen as 'empowered'?
i don't think so.
i don't have any problem with it philosophically, and sure as shit don't think the govt. should be involved in any way they aren't with say, accounting....
but then again, i haven't ever thought it would be a fun thing to visit a prostitute, and i wouldn't want my child to choose the profession.
like you, Nigel, we like porn though, and that's not too far off....

[Kai]

Prostitution can be empowering, if it's an enterprise run by women and/or employing women who feel empowered and legitimate in what they do.

Unfortunately, that's probably not realistic.  It's a lot more frequently the last resort of unempowered and exploited women.

"Your body is a commodity".

How very empowering.

How is that any different than other people who's time is a commodity, or skills are a commodity? The commodification isn't the work itself, it's the way a person is treated.

For example, I have quite a bit of skill in aquatic insect identification. I could do consulting work for people, work for a museum, any number of things, and my skills, which are part of who I am, would not be commodified.


Or I could join a consulting firm, get put in an office space with 7 other people, and sort and identify samples 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for the rest of my life.

Commodification is all about treatment. If your worth as a person is decided on one aspect of who you are, then you are a commodity. Whether you are a prostitute or a university professor.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Prostitution can be empowering, if it's an enterprise run by women and/or employing women who feel empowered and legitimate in what they do.

Unfortunately, that's probably not realistic.  It's a lot more frequently the last resort of unempowered and exploited women.

"Your body is a commodity".

How very empowering.

How is that any different than other people who's time is a commodity, or skills are a commodity? The commodification isn't the work itself, it's the way a person is treated.

For example, I have quite a bit of skill in aquatic insect identification. I could do consulting work for people, work for a museum, any number of things, and my skills, which are part of who I am, would not be commodified.


Or I could join a consulting firm, get put in an office space with 7 other people, and sort and identify samples 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for the rest of my life.

Commodification is all about treatment. If your worth as a person is decided on one aspect of who you are, then you are a commodity. Whether you are a prostitute or a university professor.

Commodification, by definition, is not about treatment, it's about commerce.

Sex, like eating and giving birth, is a biological function. It's not exchangeable, it's not interchangeable, and it's deeply personal. Using it in commerce depersonalizes and compartmentalizes something that can't really be separated from the person, so in that sense, it is very different from the things you compared it to.

[Juana]

I'm fine with carefully controlled prostitution - unions and rights for sex workers, government oversight, etc. Sex CAN be a commodity, but it's the right of the woman (or man, yes) to sell it, if s/he chooses to.

But I understand not wanting a partner who's visited one. I don't want that in someone, either, and I don't think it's unfeminist. It is, however, unfeminist to try to tell a woman what she should want in a partner, because a woman has every damn right in the world to prefer someone who sees sex as a connection, not a commodity. You're not shitting on sex workers (in your case; someone with the same sentiment can be shitting on sex workers for misogynistic reasons), you just have a preference for how your partner sees the act.

[Kai]

Prostitution can be empowering, if it's an enterprise run by women and/or employing women who feel empowered and legitimate in what they do.

Unfortunately, that's probably not realistic.  It's a lot more frequently the last resort of unempowered and exploited women.

"Your body is a commodity".

How very empowering.

How is that any different than other people who's time is a commodity, or skills are a commodity? The commodification isn't the work itself, it's the way a person is treated.

For example, I have quite a bit of skill in aquatic insect identification. I could do consulting work for people, work for a museum, any number of things, and my skills, which are part of who I am, would not be commodified.


Or I could join a consulting firm, get put in an office space with 7 other people, and sort and identify samples 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for the rest of my life.

Commodification is all about treatment. If your worth as a person is decided on one aspect of who you are, then you are a commodity. Whether you are a prostitute or a university professor.

Commodification, by definition, is not about treatment, it's about commerce.

Sex, like eating and giving birth, is a biological function. It's not exchangeable, it's not interchangeable, and it's deeply personal. Using it in commerce depersonalizes and compartmentalizes something that can't really be separated from the person, so in that sense, it is very different from the things you compared it to.

I guess I was using the wrong definition.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I'm fine with carefully controlled prostitution - unions and rights for sex workers, government oversight, etc. Sex CAN be a commodity, but it's the right of the woman (or man, yes) to sell it, if s/he chooses to.

But I understand not wanting a partner who's visited one. I don't want that in someone, either, and I don't think it's unfeminist. It is, however, unfeminist to try to tell a woman what she should want in a partner, because a woman has every damn right in the world to prefer someone who sees sex as a connection, not a commodity. You're not shitting on sex workers (in your case; someone with the same sentiment can be shitting on sex workers for misogynistic reasons), you just have a preference for how your partner sees the act.

I agree that people have the right to do what they please with their bodies, but that's not the same as "empowering".

[Juana]

The (potentially) empowering part is reclaiming the right to do that sort of thing from society. *shrug*

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The (potentially) empowering part is reclaiming the right to do that sort of thing from society. *shrug*

All I know is that I've met a lot of prostitutes in my varied and rather slimy collection of careers, and not one of them was "empowered".  Mostly, they were burnt out husks that at some point were someone's children.  By the time I ran into them, they didn't have any child left in them at all, and they had the hardest eyes I've ever seen.

They reminded me of nothing I've ever seen before, outside of a reptile house at the zoo.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Sex can be commodified. I don't think it's healthy to commodify sex, but it's certainly possible.

I think that some of the reaction I got was that people assumed I was placing a moral value on prostitution. One person asked me if I would think less of someone who hired a gigolo. People thought I was passing judgement.

I am. I am judging people who pay for sex as unfit to be my partner. As a former sex worker, and a woman who has had relationships with men who have paid for sex, I am also judging people who pay for sex as being probably a little broken, a little off, and a little disconnected, because in my experience that was always the case.