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Prostitution & feminism

Started by Mesozoic Mister Nigel, November 28, 2011, 10:03:47 PM

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Hoser McRhizzy

Quote from: Nigel on November 29, 2011, 09:47:04 PM
Quote from: Hoser McRhizzy on November 29, 2011, 08:25:50 AM
Were your friends students? Just asking because I attended a course last year or the one before where "sex worker rights" came up in a class focusing on trafficking.  We know that when young, often white, or otherwise heavily monied people start holding forth on The Disempowered for grades or job opportunities, things get sad-weird.*  In this case, the rights of people fucking for rent to have some measures of safety or say over their work conditions got turned into safely sheltered people accusing the rest of the room of thinking sex was bad.  No shades of grey, no actual work conditions, much less "conditions of their labour"  (marxism isn't safely radical enough yet/again  :lulz: ).


* for example - I read too many resumes.  This morning, under "relevant volunteer experience" (as opposed to irrelevant... I'd love to see that... please put it on your CV...) a young man listed his participation in "the day the world said no to war."  I shit you not.

Nah, they're all mid-30's to early-40's educated professionals.

I thought it was an interesting reaction simply because I was saying that *I* wanted a partner who had never been with a prostitute, (and given my personal history, it seems like it would be psychologically healthier for me to have such a partner) and wasn't anticipating anyone challenging my reasons for that, let alone my women friends.

Because expressing personal preference and speaking from experience are anti-feminist now.  Or something like that.  I stopped getting the official newsletter awhile back, so I can't say with any particular authority.  :lol:

I'm sorry your friends felt the need to be douchebags to you.
It feels unreal because it's trickling up.

Mesozoic Mister Nigel

You guys ROCK. I was all WTF, and then I posted this here and y'all were all "YEAH NO" and I feel better. :)
"I'm guessing it was January 2007, a meeting in Bethesda, we got a bag of bees and just started smashing them on the desk," Charles Wick said. "It was very complicated."


Cain

You just don't understand how being lied to about being set up for a nannying job in a foreign country, being illegally smuggled across borders, having all your ID taken and being told to pay back an abritrary debt while being held as a virtual prisoner by vicious pimps linked to organised crime groups and made to sell your body can be empowering, you guys.

Placid Dingo

Quote from: Cain on December 01, 2011, 12:39:57 PM
You just don't understand how being lied to about being set up for a nannying job in a foreign country, being illegally smuggled across borders, having all your ID taken and being told to pay back an abritrary debt while being held as a virtual prisoner by vicious pimps linked to organised crime groups and made to sell your body can be empowering, you guys.

I get that it's tongue in cheek and you know this, but prostitution doesn't mean human trafficking.
Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.

Cain

Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 01, 2011, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 01, 2011, 12:39:57 PM
You just don't understand how being lied to about being set up for a nannying job in a foreign country, being illegally smuggled across borders, having all your ID taken and being told to pay back an abritrary debt while being held as a virtual prisoner by vicious pimps linked to organised crime groups and made to sell your body can be empowering, you guys.

I get that it's tongue in cheek and you know this, but prostitution doesn't mean human trafficking.

And of course the large numbers of protstitutes who are trafficked into foreign countries has nothing at all to do with the topic in hand, right?

Christ, this is like having Requia back.

Faust

Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 01, 2011, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 01, 2011, 12:39:57 PM
You just don't understand how being lied to about being set up for a nannying job in a foreign country, being illegally smuggled across borders, having all your ID taken and being told to pay back an abritrary debt while being held as a virtual prisoner by vicious pimps linked to organised crime groups and made to sell your body can be empowering, you guys.

I get that it's tongue in cheek and you know this, but prostitution doesn't mean human trafficking.
The two are synonymous in Europe and America.
Sleepless nights at the chateau

Jenne

Quote from: Faust on December 01, 2011, 01:30:35 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 01, 2011, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 01, 2011, 12:39:57 PM
You just don't understand how being lied to about being set up for a nannying job in a foreign country, being illegally smuggled across borders, having all your ID taken and being told to pay back an abritrary debt while being held as a virtual prisoner by vicious pimps linked to organised crime groups and made to sell your body can be empowering, you guys.

I get that it's tongue in cheek and you know this, but prostitution doesn't mean human trafficking.
The two are synonymous in Europe and America.

A good chunk in Asia--and you can throw child sex slavery in there while you're at it.

Placid Dingo

Quote from: Cain on December 01, 2011, 01:18:44 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 01, 2011, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 01, 2011, 12:39:57 PM
You just don't understand how being lied to about being set up for a nannying job in a foreign country, being illegally smuggled across borders, having all your ID taken and being told to pay back an abritrary debt while being held as a virtual prisoner by vicious pimps linked to organised crime groups and made to sell your body can be empowering, you guys.

I get that it's tongue in cheek and you know this, but prostitution doesn't mean human trafficking.

And of course the large numbers of protstitutes who are trafficked into foreign countries has nothing at all to do with the topic in hand, right?

Christ, this is like having Requia back.

I won't harp on, but yeah of course it's related. But the question was is prostitution empowering, and what you've described isn't specifically prostitution. You could argue that prostitution is empowering (I'm not enclined to agree) but nobody in their right mind would argue that being trafficked is empowering.

I'll step out of this line of discussion though before it collapses into semantics because I think we both understand where eachother are coming from.
Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.

Placid Dingo

Quote from: Jenne on December 01, 2011, 01:47:04 PM
Quote from: Faust on December 01, 2011, 01:30:35 PM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on December 01, 2011, 01:16:13 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 01, 2011, 12:39:57 PM
You just don't understand how being lied to about being set up for a nannying job in a foreign country, being illegally smuggled across borders, having all your ID taken and being told to pay back an abritrary debt while being held as a virtual prisoner by vicious pimps linked to organised crime groups and made to sell your body can be empowering, you guys.

I get that it's tongue in cheek and you know this, but prostitution doesn't mean human trafficking.
The two are synonymous in Europe and America.

A good chunk in Asia--and you can throw child sex slavery in there while you're at it.

At least as far as Australia is in this conversation the two are not synonymous. There's relation and overlap and issues regarding both, but prostitution is not trafficking.

I know a lot of prostitution comes from trafficking, I just thought since the conversation was centered around prostitution, it would make more sense for that to be the point of discussion.
Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.

Jenne

I think there's a distinction that needs to be made, and this can be because of where we all live, grew up and our experiences in these things. 

There's prostitution, which includes the sex trade, the illegal side that makes most practices that go along with it something that degrades all involved and is meant to, and there's sex for sale.

Now, there's a reason why there's a difference in what is meant by an escort vs. a hooker.  I think, Placid Dingo, you're trying to say that "prostitution" as you see it is more of a "sex for sale" practice, and slavery, child endangerment, kidnapping, etc. are a separate part of that whole sex TRADING business.

I think unfortunately, as many have pointed out, it's sort of a fantasy to think that they're truly inseparable, and that there isn't something fundamentally broken about someone who sells their body as an instrument for sex for a living.  Broken down into its essentials, it seems to yield that comparison rather more often than not, witihout the other variables of evil listed above.

Placid Dingo

I checked wiki just to make sure I wasn't fucking up my definition. This is what it said, which is where I stand on it.

Prostitution is the act or practice of providing sexual services to another person in return for payment. (in the case of this thread, when referring to prostitution though, I have more specifically been referring to people paying/being paid for sex).

This is possibly me being pedantic because of where I live, but the scenario Cain discusses is a reality in some cases of prostitution, but in australia at least is not the norm, so far as I'm aware. Cases like the one you described Jenne with someone 'a bit broken' are possibly more common but there are certainly some people who are involved in prostitution who are reasonably well ballenced.

Of course there's overlap in the legal/illegal sex industry. Many women trafficked into Australia are coerced into working in legal brothels. However, in discussing the idea of prostitution in general, I don't tend to assume this is standard for most women who end up as prostitutes.

Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.

Jenne

#86
I guess as I said, our own experiences and opinions are going to vary on this to a large degree.  But you can't have one side of this issue, I believe, without the other.  To dismiss it as wholly unplausible and not the main of the whole theme is beyond disingenuous.  I believe, Placid Dingo, your more benign view of those who work as prostitutes and those who use them seems to be rather more or less...in the minority? for lack of a better word. And I understand the need to not villify the john nor codify a prostitute as dirty, rotten people...but in the main, there's nothing to be upheld about either state. (eta: because society tries hard to perpetuate this theme, not as strongly on the side of the john, mind you, more towards the women walking the streets)

Because the so-called freedom to sell yourself in the end is more of a jail, and the so-called freedom to buy someone for a while makes you their jailor.

Elder Iptuous

i wonder if i am missing something here.
it seems to me that there is a clear parallel between the unfortunate link between prostitution and violence, and that of the drug trade and violence.
in discussions of drugs the majority view seems to be that we should separate the two issues because the link is mostly caused by the illegality of the act.  why not the same with prostitution?

i'd rather not inject myself as taking a side in this issue, because i have no dog in the fight.  my curiosity was just piqued by the apparent disconnect...

Placid Dingo

Quote from: Jenne on December 01, 2011, 02:34:38 PM
I guess as I said, our own experiences and opinions are going to vary on this to a large degree.  But you can't have one side of this issue, I believe, without the other.  To dismiss it as wholly unplausible and not the main of the whole theme is beyond disingenuous.  I believe, Placid Dingo, your more benign view of those who work as prostitutes and those who use them seems to be rather more or less...in the minority? for lack of a better word. And I understand the need to not villify the john nor codify a prostitute as dirty, rotten people...but in the main, there's nothing to be upheld about either state. (eta: because society tries hard to perpetuate this theme, not as strongly on the side of the john, mind you, more towards the women walking the streets)

Because the so-called freedom to sell yourself in the end is more of a jail, and the so-called freedom to buy someone for a while makes you their jailor.

I guess the simplist I can put it is that I do not believe that if you're talking about prostitution you may as well be discussing human trafficking. I think the two things are so different that what we say about one does not by default relate to the other.

I have views on both, and they differ wildly. I do acknowledge the overlap, but still feel that we should have codes and operations in place to ensure legal prostitution does not support human trafficking, rather than treating them as one and the same.

Not meaning to be a smart arse, but I'm not sure what you're saying I'm calling implausible.

Also, by my benign views, do you mean my view that (afaik) Cain's scenario is, at least in my country, atypical of prostitution in general? Or do you feel I'm being generally supportive of prostitution?
Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.

Placid Dingo

 :x
Quote from: Iptuous on December 01, 2011, 02:41:40 PM
i wonder if i am missing something here.
it seems to me that there is a clear parallel between the unfortunate link between prostitution and violence, and that of the drug trade and violence.
in discussions of drugs the majority view seems to be that we should separate the two issues because the link is mostly caused by the illegality of the act.  why not the same with prostitution?

i'd rather not inject myself as taking a side in this issue, because i have no dog in the fight.  my curiosity was just piqued by the apparent disconnect...

Ippy, I started a thread in AE on legal prostitution; I'm interested in pursuing this line of discussion but don't want to be smacked for a threadjack, so maybe bring it up there?
Haven't paid rent since 2014 with ONE WEIRD TRICK.