"Proof" that homophobia is associated with homosexual arousal.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I am not saying that he is homophobic based on ONE QUESTION. I am saying that being disappointed in the fact that a child is gay, for whatever reason, is supportive of an environment of homophobia, and thereby falls into the category, IMO, of "a type of hatred".

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I think a whole lot of people ITT are willfully misinterpreting what Ippy is saying.

Not that I agree with him, but I certainly see his point. And remember, he doesn't live in wonderful liberal tolerant Massachussets, he lives in Texas where the cultural prejudice against homosexuality is still very much alive and well. Saying that being inwardly disappointed in the uncontrollable circumstance that will cause lifelong difficulties for his child without in any way being disappointed in the child itself is some sort of "hatred" is just ignorant and stupid.

Well, Texas explains a lot.

However, his initial point seems to be that the wording of one question is wiggly enough that it invalidates the selection for homophobia, with which I disagree.

Figured I'd restate this, to help nail down those moving goalposts.

[East Coast Hustle]

I don't really agree with Ippy's position, but I think there's a HUGE gap between misguided disappointment and hatred. Hate is a very strong word, one that people mostly seem to have forgotten the actual meaning of. And you don't need to overstate things like that in order to criticize his position. In fact, IMO it only undercuts your argument.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I don't really agree with Ippy's position, but I think there's a HUGE gap between misguided disappointment and hatred. Hate is a very strong word, one that people mostly seem to have forgotten the actual meaning of. And you don't need to overstate things like that in order to criticize his position. In fact, IMO it only undercuts your argument.

What I actually said, now that you've completely shifted the focus of the discussion from your previous "the test is no good" argument:

I personally think that the "they will face struggles and derision" shape of disappointment is itself a form of hatred. People said (and still say) exactly the same thing about blacks marrying whites. You could almost say the same thing about people choosing to become artists or scientists.

[East Coast Hustle]

I know what you said. That was why I responded to what you said. My response goes for all of those examples, none of which fall into the category of actual hatred, unless you stubbornly believe (as I already said) that misguided disappointment and hatred are somehow the same thing, which is patently absurd. That neither of them are desirable does not mean they are the same thing.

And that WAS my original argument, the "crappy test" thing was just a side observation that got run away with.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'm going to have to stand by what I said. So we can disagree on that point. "I'm disappointed because you will have a harder life" is bigotry-supporting bullshit IMO, every bit as much (or more) than saying exactly the same thing about a mixed-race couple in 1960.

The fact that good people have that reaction, and it doesn't make them bad people, doesn't mean it's not a reflection of prejudice.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

And "the crappy test thing was a side observation" is a bullshit dodge, since that's specifically what I took issue with and you were arguing about today. Fucking man up. I expect better from you.

[East Coast Hustle]

It's not a dodge at all. Whether or not it's what YOU took issue with, it's not the point that I cared about most ITT.

And you seem to have missed the point where Ippy specified that he would never SAY that to his child. So I guess when someones inner dialogue and outward actions are in conflict, we're supposed to place more weight on the innate feelings that they recognize as being damaging and decide to keep in check rather than how they actually treat the people around them?

That's ridiculous PC bullshit. And as undesirable as prejudice is in this context, it's STILL not the equivalent of hatred.

[BabylonHoruv]

It's not a dodge at all. Whether or not it's what YOU took issue with, it's not the point that I cared about most ITT.

And you seem to have missed the point where Ippy specified that he would never SAY that to his child. So I guess when someones inner dialogue and outward actions are in conflict, we're supposed to place more weight on the innate feelings that they recognize as being damaging and decide to keep in check rather than how they actually treat the people around them?

That's ridiculous PC bullshit. And as undesirable as prejudice is in this context, it's STILL not the equivalent of hatred.

You think Ippy's imaginary gay kid wouldn't be capable of digging up his old posts on PD where he said it?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's not a dodge at all. Whether or not it's what YOU took issue with, it's not the point that I cared about most ITT.

And you seem to have missed the point where Ippy specified that he would never SAY that to his child. So I guess when someones inner dialogue and outward actions are in conflict, we're supposed to place more weight on the innate feelings that they recognize as being damaging and decide to keep in check rather than how they actually treat the people around them?

That's ridiculous PC bullshit. And as undesirable as prejudice is in this context, it's STILL not the equivalent of hatred.

I think it's a form of hatred. Not the equivalent of. Stop putting words in my mouth. Disliking something is a negative emotion. I am not talking PC, I am talking reality.

And we all have prejudices. I think that fucking manning up and looking them in the eye instead of cowering behind semantics and claiming the test is crappy is a more bipedal way to handle them.

And if you didn't care about the "crappy test", why the fuck did you take so much issue with my general, not-specifically-directed-at-you post challenging that particular bandwagon?

[East Coast Hustle]

It's not a dodge at all. Whether or not it's what YOU took issue with, it's not the point that I cared about most ITT.

And you seem to have missed the point where Ippy specified that he would never SAY that to his child. So I guess when someones inner dialogue and outward actions are in conflict, we're supposed to place more weight on the innate feelings that they recognize as being damaging and decide to keep in check rather than how they actually treat the people around them?

That's ridiculous PC bullshit. And as undesirable as prejudice is in this context, it's STILL not the equivalent of hatred.

I think it's a form of hatred. Not the equivalent of. Stop putting words in my mouth. Disliking something is a negative emotion. I am not talking PC, I am talking reality.

And we all have prejudices. I think that fucking manning up and looking them in the eye instead of cowering behind semantics and claiming the test is crappy is a more bipedal way to handle them.

And if you didn't care about the "crappy test", why the fuck did you take so much issue with my general, not-specifically-directed-at-you post challenging that particular bandwagon?

So...something is a FORM of hatred, but it's not hatred?

I hope I'm not the only one who thinks that makes absolutely no sense at all.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

DEAR IPTUOUS: WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT THE TEST IS RIGHT. YES. YOU BEING DISAPPOINTED IN YOUR KID'S GAYNESS IS AN INDICATOR OF NEGATIVE FEELING ABOUT GAYNESS.

This does not make you a bad person. It also doesn't make you a homophobe. If you took and scored the entire test, I very much doubt that you would even end up in the middle of the spectrum for homophobia.

The fact that you do, indeed, have some negative feelings about homosexuality is not enough to make you homophobic. However, it also doesn't mean that the test is flawed (at least, no more flawed than any such test can be). It means that you have some negative feelings about homosexuality.

"The test is flawed" is kind of a textbook avoidance tactic, and the fact that so many people jumped right on that bandwagon is really interesting.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

It's not a dodge at all. Whether or not it's what YOU took issue with, it's not the point that I cared about most ITT.

And you seem to have missed the point where Ippy specified that he would never SAY that to his child. So I guess when someones inner dialogue and outward actions are in conflict, we're supposed to place more weight on the innate feelings that they recognize as being damaging and decide to keep in check rather than how they actually treat the people around them?

That's ridiculous PC bullshit. And as undesirable as prejudice is in this context, it's STILL not the equivalent of hatred.

I think it's a form of hatred. Not the equivalent of. Stop putting words in my mouth. Disliking something is a negative emotion. I am not talking PC, I am talking reality.

And we all have prejudices. I think that fucking manning up and looking them in the eye instead of cowering behind semantics and claiming the test is crappy is a more bipedal way to handle them.

And if you didn't care about the "crappy test", why the fuck did you take so much issue with my general, not-specifically-directed-at-you post challenging that particular bandwagon?

So...something is a FORM of hatred, but it's not hatred?

I hope I'm not the only one who thinks that makes absolutely no sense at all.

It's not as virulent as hatred itself, but it's a relative. Sort of like passive evil.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Perhaps you would like to find some other semantic detail to nitpick over in order to distract from the fact that you made a fool of yourself with the "crappy test" argument.

[East Coast Hustle]

so, in other words, it's NOT HATRED AT ALL.

Also, the crappiness of this particular test is a completely separate issue from the issue of whatever nonsense you're trying to make sense out of now and conflating them serves no purpose other than to obscure both arguments.

ETA: I see, so whether or not something is outright hatred or mild prejudice that's recognized by the person who holds it and subsequently does their best to keep it to themselves and not inflict those prejudices on other people is a "semantic detail".

For real? this is your argument?