No more sermons, no more rants.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Many of us have not read much/any RAW so explaining things with dictionary words without deferral to an author might be more useful.

You mean for the subforum description?

If you got any suggestions I'll be glad to incorporate them. I wrote it that way because I figured the people that'd want to specifically talk about that stuff probably do know the names.

I think she was referring to Telarus' post above yours, Trip. I think the subforum descriptions are fine as is.

Yeah, the descriptions are great as-is! I meant that I don't know what Telarus is talking about but it sounds interesting enough that I would not mind hearing about it in non-RAW-specific lingo.

[Telarus]

I'll let you know as soon as I have it ;0

Still need to digest that DVD a couple more times.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

I'll let you know as soon as I have it ;0

Still need to digest that DVD a couple more times.

Awesome!

[Telarus]

Yeah, I've been thinking about that (very esoteric) bit of intro RAW did for that video. So many levels of meaning, hes worse than bloody Crowley.


Best I can tell, it includes a "System-description". With almost mathematical variables (this serves as the draw with Peter Carrol's Chaos Magick work, I think too).

But (the problem is) RAW uses a James-Joyce based abstraction, where he's got non-verbal symbols as the variables, and he slots cute phrases in so that the abstraction now becomes an "I-made-a-funny"(ala TMNT), but keeps the metaphor appropriate to the context he's found himself in. (An essential skill of an Illuminatus Primii/Zen Master.)

It's really hard to meta-talk about this stuff without inventing or using jargon. I shall do my best to limit that.


I was once at a Kate Rusby concert (good celtic punk fiddler from ireland), and before ordaining her a Pope-ess after the show* her guitarist had interrupted quite a good solo and walked up to the mic to insert a Koan into the moment of silence.

*(She was impressed, & I think the 'every man woman, child' concept kinda startled her being that "Who's the Pope" is a source of actual violence over there.)


"Do fish drink...... water?"

Do fish...    drink it? No. Saying so would be an improper use of language.

Imagining a fish drinking a glass of water is an exercise in surreality (more on this later). So, No.

They are immersed in it.

If they had language, would they even have a word for it other than "space"?




THAT's what RAW was interested in.

The Narrative that a group of people is Immersed In, in the moment.

We all carry Narrative around with us, but we are constantly take in bits of others during our daily lives. And there are situations where the individual Narratives are similar enough that every can be said to be "in" the same (fuzzy) Reality Tunnel (defined as the collection/system of grids you use to filter and react to sensory input).

I read an article on Thirtyseven's Skilluminati site. It called out the concept of "Consensus Trance".

That is:
1) There exists a Meta-Narrative, full of conflicting signals and signal-chains (snippets of Narratives). This exists because we live in Culture, spread by Language.

2) Certain parts of the audience find certain sets of signals very attractive (for various reasons). This can be an associative force, the Hodge, or a dissociative force, the Podge (i.e. it can draw you towards, or repel you from another person based on the signals you receive from them, and how those signals get interpreted into Narrative by your Reality Tunnel).

That's it, at the top level. What happens to the Narrative (& the group of people, our "audience/performer-system" as a result of the changes in the Narrative) would be the next thing to describe....so comes Discord, Bureaucracy and Aftermath International Relations.... (Damnit, fell back on the jargon... well, like I said, I need to watch the DVD a few more times).

But, at some point, the Reality Tunnel (the system of grids/filters, yes?) cannot accurately predict what bullshit Reality might pull next [or, to get sinister, some Faction is guiding the Narrative so that they can profit off the prediction-system failing for some people].

If this occurs, and the people addicted to the Narrative still cling to it and claim that it's Truth value shall not be questioned... well, then pour this Mako a double of Rum and Coke... oh, and I'll have some ice-water as a chaser.

(We have then encoded a Surreality into our Culture... it's there, and will be reacted to AS IF REAL by a certain percentage of the population.)


The system RAW is trying to describe includes feedback mechanisms, and I think he accurately thought that those are the leverage points you need to influence to effect the current Narrative.

.
.
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Now take the above, and call it "A System that happens anywhere you have (A group of Hominids + Culture)." How can we leverage this knowledge?

Let me know how much of the above helped, vs how much of it didn't.

[Telarus]

Watching it, this these jumped out at me as simple every day language.


"The Self is a social game for which one person at a time takes the blame."


"Everything we know, or think we know, is a function of how well our brain (or the systems/'circuits' in our brain) are operating."


"The purpose of The Stupid is to force The Intelligent to become even more intelligent."

[Pæs]

I think almost all of that helped. I can't pinpoint anything that didn't.
Thanks, Telarus!

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Interesting... and all very familiar somehow.

I have to take a moment to pick apart the fish exercise though. I feel like maybe I am missing something crucial and just don't get it.

We are immersed in air, yet we breathe it.

Fish, like other creatures, are mostly water; they do have to absorb it. Some absorb it through their skin and gills, and some drink it.

[Telarus]

There's some interesting posts on that, over the web. Here's what I keep running in to:

http://www.upendedblog.com/2011/10/25/obvious-questions-in-science-how-do-fish-drink/

Short form: Freshwater fish absorb water through their skin. Saltwater fish absorb water through the digestive tract (while ridding excess salt via the gills). Has to do with salt-concentrations in the body and osmosis. Interesting, eh?

Here's the Etymology of "to Drink":

drink (v.) Look up drink at Dictionary.com
    O.E. drincan "to drink," also "to swallow up, engulf" (class III strong verb; past tense dranc, pp. druncen), from P.Gmc. *drengkan (cf. O.S. drinkan, O.Fris. drinka, Du. drinken, O.H.G. trinkan, Ger. trinken, O.N. drekka, Goth. drigkan "to drink"), of uncertain origin, perhaps from a root meaning "to draw." Not found outside Germanic. Most I.E. words for this trace to PIE *po(i)- (cf. Gk. pino, L. biber, Ir. ibim, O.C.S. piti, Rus. pit'; see imbibe). The noun meaning "beverage, alcoholic beverage" was in late O.E.

        The noun, AS. drinc, would normally have given southern drinch (cf. drench), but has been influenced by the verb. [Weekley]

    To drink like a fish is first recorded 1747.

Because words carry around all their connotations until we place them into Context to narrow their meaning, I think it's the "to Engulf" portion that causes the cognitive dissonance. How can a fish engulf water, when the water already engulfs the fish?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

There's some interesting posts on that, over the web. Here's what I keep running in to:

http://www.upendedblog.com/2011/10/25/obvious-questions-in-science-how-do-fish-drink/

Short form: Freshwater fish absorb water through their skin. Saltwater fish absorb water through the digestive tract (while ridding excess salt via the gills). Has to do with salt-concentrations in the body and osmosis. Interesting, eh?

Here's the Etymology of "to Drink":

drink (v.) Look up drink at Dictionary.com
    O.E. drincan "to drink," also "to swallow up, engulf" (class III strong verb; past tense dranc, pp. druncen), from P.Gmc. *drengkan (cf. O.S. drinkan, O.Fris. drinka, Du. drinken, O.H.G. trinkan, Ger. trinken, O.N. drekka, Goth. drigkan "to drink"), of uncertain origin, perhaps from a root meaning "to draw." Not found outside Germanic. Most I.E. words for this trace to PIE *po(i)- (cf. Gk. pino, L. biber, Ir. ibim, O.C.S. piti, Rus. pit'; see imbibe). The noun meaning "beverage, alcoholic beverage" was in late O.E.

        The noun, AS. drinc, would normally have given southern drinch (cf. drench), but has been influenced by the verb. [Weekley]

    To drink like a fish is first recorded 1747.

Because words carry around all their connotations until we place them into Context to narrow their meaning, I think it's the "to Engulf" portion that causes the cognitive dissonance. How can a fish engulf water, when the water already engulfs the fish?

By swallowing it.

That seems as silly as asking how we can take air into our lungs when we are surrounded by air.

Do you swim? You can be underwater and not swallowing water. Also, when you swim vigorously you need to drink a quart of water an hour to replace water lost through sweating. It's easy to become dehydrated while swimming.

[Telarus]

Well, the metaphor works for fresh-water fish.  

And you have a point. But we have very little language that accurately describes "swallowing-while-being-swallowed-by"... except breath. Which is why most mystic systems which have the "Chi/Praya" variable (and other Strangeness which may have practical value) tend to use both Breath and Water metaphors to try to get to an attempted description.


We have a similar situation with Language. It's hard for a majority of domesticated primates to tell if there's a bad filter in their personal reality tunnel, or if there's a bad filter in the Narrative which they've aligned with (and defend via tribal response). Part of learning how to do that is to spend some time in non-verbal consciousness (brain activity between 10.5 and 7.5 Hz).

I'm pretty sure you have practice with that state, Nigel, from how I've seen you describe working the Glass. It's a transitory state from my experience, it comes and goes, but there are definitely moments of "being in the Zone" to use a sports analogy.

RAW makes a joke that the first time you consciously recognize it (i.e. have language to describe it as a nonverbal state) you immediately ruin in by thinking "WOW, Look what I just did! I achieved non-verbal consciousness!".

This sea of Signal that we find ourselves in can be treacherous, and superstitions abound on each of our little boats.

Here's some good language from an article on Tart's "Consensus Trance":

Consensus trance induction -- the process of learning the "normal waking" state of mind -- is involuntary, and occurs under conditions that give it far more power than ordinary hypnotists are ever allowed. When infants are first subjected to the processes that induce consensus trance, they are all vulnerable and dependent upon their consensus hypnotists, for their parents are the ones who initiate them into the rules of their culture, according to the instructions that had been impressed upon them by their own parents, teachers, and peers.

Among the techniques prohibited to ethical hypnotists but wielded effectively in the induction of consensus trance are: the enormous amount of time devoted to the induction (years to a lifetime), the use of physical force, emotional force, love and validation, guilt, and the instinctive trust children have for their parents. As they learn myriad versions of 'the right way to do things' -- and the things not to do -- from their parents, children build and continue to maintain a mental model of the world, a filter on their reality lens that they learn to perceive everything through (except partially in dreams). The result leaves most people in an automatized daze. "It is a fundamental mistake of man's to think that he is alive, when he has merely fallen asleep in life's waiting room," is the way Idries Shah, a contemporary exponent of ancient Middle Eastern mystical psychologies, put it.

If humans are indeed on the verge of realizing that we are caught in illusions while thinking we are perceiving reality, how do we propose to escape? The answer, Tart has concluded, could come in the form of "mindfulness training " -- a variety of exercises for elevating awareness by deliberately paying closer-than-usual attention to the mundane details of everyday life. Gurdjieff called it "self-remembering," and many flavors of psychotherapist, East and West, use it. Mindfulness is a skill that can be honed by the right approach to what is happening right in front of you: "Be here now" as internal gymnastics. Working, eating, waiting for a traffic light to change can furnish opportunities for mindfulness. Observe what you are feeling, thinking, perceiving, don't get hung up on judging it, just pay attention. Tart thinks this kind of self-observation -- noticing the automatization -- is the first step toward waking up.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Yes, as an artist I do a great deal of nonverbal thinking. My friend and former employee calls that glassworking zone "beadhead", which is of course nonverbal, but that's different from general nonverbal thinking. I tend to think mostly in images and concepts more than in words, which I tend to use for making lists and telling stories. I used to argue with my ex-husband about this because he believed that all thinking is verbal and that you can't have thought without words.

For instance, when you posted that about the fish I didn't reason through the A+B of whether fish drink water, I just thought the feeling of being underwater and swallowing water. Then I looked it up to see if fish do that.

[Ari]

Howdy PD, I'm not dead and finally got my own internet uplink again. No more shaky wifi from across the yard. =)
Every now and then i lurked around but meatspace had to take priority in the past year or two. I kinda went back to the drawing board regarding my selves and did a lot of growing through trial and error, doing crazy and necessary things, that whole life thing... Again Discordia and the shrapnel which i have picked up here and/or through a variety of books (Carroll included, who i grew rather fond of i must admit) seemed to have allowed me to grow very efficiently. I'm quite happy with the results.
Mostly i found the joy of doing, for lack of better words. I finally got my ass up and left the computer screen to DO something with my life. A small business allows me to survive within the machine without ending up in some shitass cubicle. It's been a good ride. I loved and lost, died and rose, but the sun within prevailed.
But enough of this.

Re: OP/most of this thread
I should dare to post again. The Joys of Planeswalking one & two need some revision and the third chapter exists only as a draft, time to finish that and present some of my other writing to you folks. English is my second language, but i read and think so much in it, it barely shows, especially in Germany. But i feel my writing to be missing something, so barfing it up i shall and enjoy/endure the feedback.  =)
There are other projects I got involved in too. Some aiming to DO something about the state of our society, some purely creative. I still put out flyers and leave stickers in places. And some, well the KYFMS rule still applies.

Cram, LMNO -- I love the Chao Te Ching and as soon as i have funds available i will place my order for the paperback version.

~Planeswalker
still crazy, just more refined, maybe

[Triple Zero]

Heyyy Planeswalker! Glad to hear you're doing well! Where in Germany do you live now, roughly?

[Ari]

Heyyy Planeswalker! Glad to hear you're doing well! Where in Germany do you live now, roughly?

Still up north, in Flensburg, right at the border to Denmark.

[Triple Zero]

Right. I knew that.