10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.

[AFK]

YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!

[Pæs]

I wish "WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE BOARD HOW DO WE FIX IT?" was limited to one thread to make it easier to discuss.

[Pæs]

I'm going to post my comment from the other thread here so that I can refer to it more easily while reading this thread.

This thread got me thinking about the criticism of organisations in The Coming Insurrection.

Organizations are attractive due to their apparent consistency – they have a history, a head office, a name, resources, a leader, a strategy and a discourse. They are nonetheless empty structures, which, in spite of their grand origins, can never be filled. In all their affairs, at every level, these organizations are concerned above all with their own survival as organizations, and little else. Their repeated betrayals have often alienated the commitment of their own rank and file. And this is why you can, on occasion, run into worthy beings within them. But the promise of the encounter can only be realized outside the organization and, unavoidably, at odds with it.

While I wouldn't attack PD.com with quite the same criticism, I think it's important to recognise that some people aren't here to contribute to MY understanding of Discordia. For some our posters, just being a part of this community as a community rather than as a means to advance Discordianism, is their aim. The sharing of what is seen as "the banal details of their lives" is a pretty normal part of the friendship they have with a lot of the other members. If that's not what some people want out of the site, I think we need to decide whether we can tell others that they're not allowed to get that here anymore; that efforts like this one need to be understood from the perspective of the members who will reply with "oh, so I can't contribute content, I guess I'm not wanted here anymore".

Do we risk their leaving by demanding that the evolution of Discordianism become our focus and restricting their ability to chat about their day?
Would their leaving actually be helpful in increasing content?

I stayed cause it turns out I love you guys

Not to imply that Cramulus is ONLY here to develop the community as a social community, but this post is a good example of what is keeping some people here.

What's the point in critiquing anything or engaging in real discussion when it all results in a nest of passive-aggressive snarking and whining? People say ridiculous things in order to get a reaction and then instead of engaging with people criticizing them or trying to improve their work, they either lash out, or they withdraw and sulk. It's like a whole generation of adult intellectual exercise has fallen out the window, and all that's left is a pile of mittens and butthurt.

This is a problem that, for those of us who are here to engage in real discussion, needs to be addressed. There's a lot of personal attachment to ideas, and hollering and screeching in response to people digging in and the discussion turning into a flame war.

In part, you've addressed it here:

Tip, though; if you are criticized, rather than taking it personally, brushing it off, or, worst of all, digging in and going defensive, just absorb it, say "thank you", and remember that you can always simply not use criticism that truly doesn't work for you.

But I wonder if we need to develop better tools and methods for addressing arguments that people are too invested in without triggering their "I AM BEING ATTACKED" circuitry.

[Scribbly]

I don't know how many times I've seen this cycle before.  The board sucks, so maybe if we screech a little bit about who is posting bad shit and what people SHOULD be posting about, it will magically get better.  I'm not saying there aren't some valid points, but at some point you are trying to herd cats.  Order the disorder. 

But just for the record, I sure as hell am NOT going to stop posting things I want to post and talk about just because it ruffles a couple of peoples' feathers.  This is a community and we all get different things from this community and give different things to this community.  You can't make, or guilt, people into posting what YOU want them to post.  That's not going to make anything better. 

But nothing you've said implies you think there is anything of value to be found in them.

What you have done is kicked and screamed about Roger and Nigel (again) as though that is somehow more constructive than what Roger did, which was by the way not JUST saying he sees no point in posting any more.

So, you've seen this cycle a lot. Do you have anything constructive to add about how we might get around it? What direction we might go in? Or, are you just going to post passive aggressive shit like:

YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!

And make yourself into a caricature rather than engage with any actual conversation?

[Pæs]

Lastly, I would humbly suggest that there might be a bit of a cult of personality that has developed around this place that makes the dynamics challenging at times.  Whether anyone cares to admit to it or not, there is definitely a popular pecking order around these parts, and you can even see it demonstrated in this thread.  Now, perhaps the rest of the board is cool with this, I can only assume they are since it's happened.  ECH in another thread said something about changing this place to the TGRRandNIGEL.com board or something, and it was a one off joke, but there is a nugget of truth to that, I think.  

Sure, cast that criticism aside as "whining".  But it's the goddamned truth and I know I'm not the only one that has made that observation.  But, that's just the way the board has evolved, and I don't think that is something where you can just wave a magic wand and undo it, and I'm not necessarily suggesting it should be undone.  But it IS a characteristic of this board.  It just is.  

SECRET: You're not allowed to acknowledge the pecking order, not because it's insulting to suggest that we'd recognise such a thing, but because denial of it is a fantastic method of driving to insanity the people who think they've recognised it and would like to blame it for their unpopularity.

I've adapted, I can roll with it.  I personally don't give a fuck about Tucson, I don't give a fuck about Portland, I don't give a fuck about Mr. Language, or what happens at the power plant.  And I'm sure you guys could give a fuck about what happens in my office.  I originally came here for the Discordia, but that doesn't really seem to happen much anymore.  Now, I come for a little fun every now and again to break up the monotony of my day.  So I'll just make my own little Discordia.    

I don't have any particular interest in Tucson or Portland either, but I learn about them as I would learn about your office if it was being used as a point of reference in your expression of your ideas. General trivial shit about the mythology of those places doesn't interest me, but people write what they know, so it's not so surprising that their environments feature heavily in their posts.

I don't like that you're not here for the Discordia anymore, but I don't know what to suggest to change that, so I guess I'll just leave that part alone.

Also, some of what DS said.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Sometimes I have something creative to contribute, more often I'm too busy and I just skim the pics thread and read a rant or two. Every time a thread like this happens I chuckle a bit. The "purpose" of this board? Srsly? What, like some kind of holy discordian crusade? Change the world?

Fuck that shit, wouldn't change it if I could. I'm having way too much fun laughing at it just the way it is. But that's just me. There's a fair few posters here who want to do just that and good luck to them. Go raise the profile of eris or get more converts or cause a war or a ceasefire or whatever the fuck it is you want to do. I'm perfectly cool with that. Just don't expect any help from me. Not to say you wont get it but just don't expect it from me. I'm mainly here for cheap yuks and a bit of craic with a bunch of people who I know are good for it.

If that gets your panties in a knot then either change the rules and ban me or suck it the fuck up. I am not an all singing, all dancing disciple of discordia. I don't come here to work. I don't have an agenda and I sure as fuck aint interested in furthering any one elses.

[Phox]

RWHN, in all seriousness, I wonder about your motivation for coming back.
it seems that the last few times you've returned after a flounce, you've almost immediately began rehashing the same old fights that caused you to leave in the first place. You have continued to harp on the same issues with Nigel and TGRR. And, as DS has pointed out, you haven't really made a positive contribution to this thread, and yet you feel the need to get on a soapbox and... say nothing of value. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against you personally, but I seriously do not understand what point you are trying to make right now.

For the record, I'll go ahead and say I care about Tuscon and Portland. I care about Mr. Language and the plant, because Nigel and Roger are my friends. So, if that's what they want to talk about, then I'll listen. That is separate from the mythology of Tuscon and the Dark Empress, which is probably one of the most entertaining mythologies that I've heard recently. For me at least, that hasn't gotten stale yet, and while others may disagree, I'd rather have stale stories about them than yet another rehash of the same drug debate that has evidently been going on here since the year dot.  

[Pæs]

The topic has me wondering whether a Discordian imageboard might be a useful project for discussion of Discordia without the same style of associated community... and threads which are getting less attention naturally falling off the page.

[AFK]

I don't know how many times I've seen this cycle before.  The board sucks, so maybe if we screech a little bit about who is posting bad shit and what people SHOULD be posting about, it will magically get better.  I'm not saying there aren't some valid points, but at some point you are trying to herd cats.  Order the disorder. 

But just for the record, I sure as hell am NOT going to stop posting things I want to post and talk about just because it ruffles a couple of peoples' feathers.  This is a community and we all get different things from this community and give different things to this community.  You can't make, or guilt, people into posting what YOU want them to post.  That's not going to make anything better. 

But nothing you've said implies you think there is anything of value to be found in them.

Well, I decided to start with the one where I got singled out.  But for the record, I like 2,3,5, and 8.  The rest I don't think really amount to much.  Especially the bit about the n00bs.  This place just can't help itself when it comes to n00bs and trolls.  There's lots of bellyaching and complaining, yet, y'all jump right in and feed it.  If you guys REALLY didn't like that shit you would ignore it. 

What you have done is kicked and screamed about Roger and Nigel (again) as though that is somehow more constructive than what Roger did, which was by the way not JUST saying he sees no point in posting any more.

Because whether you want to see it or not, that particular dynamic between those two is part of why, for better or for worse, the board is what it is today.  Look at the Discordianism v SubG thread.  Look at how they snarked at Cram for expressing an opinion.  Why the fuck would anyone want to discuss anything contrary to THEIR opinion if that's the way it's going to go?  It IS content killer. 

So, you've seen this cycle a lot. Do you have anything constructive to add about how we might get around it? What direction we might go in?

Well, for starter, a little more respect amongst users, especially those who've been around for awhile, would be good.  Yeah, it still burns me a bit that I was called a fraud and everyone sat on their thumbs.  It bothers me to see someone like Cram get some snark for voicing an opinion.  Yeah, I know, I know, "Discordia is not nice..."  But really, there is a way for that to exist AND for us to be a little more respectful to each other.  But if we're just going to be a pack of tough-guys, well, you guys are going to be talking to yourselves for quite a while. 

THAT SAID, the lives of the old guard have changed.  We are getting older.  We have new and different responsibilities.  You can't force content.  But, we can look at board dynamics and address those.  Before TGRR or Nigel goes off into hyperbolic hysterics, NO, I'm not saying you have to treat everyone like they are delicate little flowers.  But maybe, just maybe, we can stop right before we go into character assassination mode. 

Or is that too much to ask? 

[LMNO]

Hmm.  Interesting OP.

It's helped coalesce some thoughts/feelings.

PD.com, perhaps, should not be treated as a passive social board... it should be treated as an active Interesting™ board.

It might be that we have fallen into "F5" mode because of this.  If the majority of posts are status updates, that is information from your personal world that we can passively observe.  Essentially, there is no communication.  We live our IRL, and then tell you about it.  Hit Refresh.

If we look at the threads that we have more or less agreed are the most interesting, it's when we start doing something together, something that can't be found IRL.  BIP, Spiders (the essays and the games), Nessies, Muppets {The Real Story}, Chao te Ching, trolling/safaris... Even the better politics threads have an element of collaboration rather than soliloquy.

I know, it's hard.  I've been a empty well, as far as words or ideas go (I've been a bit better with music, but that's a fairly one-sided passive trip, as well).  And one of the hardest things is the realization that for every five ideas thrown onto the board, maybe one will stick.  So you have to get ready for an 80% failure rate.  But perhaps, one thing we should keep in mind is that even negative feedback can be interesting, as long as you explain yourself.  Simply posting "this sucks" doesn't work.  Break it down, self-analyze, explain why it sucks.  Conversely, I don't have a problem with the mittens, I have a problem with only mittens.  Mittens should be a "Yes, and..." thought.  Add a thought.  And don't be afraid to embarass yourself.  It's only pixels on a screen.

So yeah.  Active, and Interesting.

[Khore]

Come on, we are Discordians, we have no rules. We are free man.

[AFK]

RWHN, in all seriousness, I wonder about your motivation for coming back.

I only left out of some weird paranoia linked to this job I've applied for.  I quickly realized that was a little wacky so I came back.  VOILA!

it seems that the last few times you've returned after a flounce, you've almost immediately began rehashing the same old fights that caused you to leave in the first place. You have continued to harp on the same issues with Nigel and TGRR. And, as DS has pointed out, you haven't really made a positive contribution to this thread, and yet you feel the need to get on a soapbox and... say nothing of value. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against you personally, but I seriously do not understand what point you are trying to make right now.

I spoke my piece about what I see as part of the problem, if that is not of any value to you then so be it.  Maybe it isn't of value to anyone.  But I am a part of this community.  I've been a part of this community for 6+ years.  I've been an active member of this community.  So I'm going to throw my two cents out, if they are duds for the rest of you, oh well, my loss.  But, I WILL SURVIVE!!!!  

For the record, I'll go ahead and say I care about Tuscon and Portland. I care about Mr. Language and the plant, because Nigel and Roger are my friends. So, if that's what they want to talk about, then I'll listen. That is separate from the mythology of Tuscon and the Dark Empress, which is probably one of the most entertaining mythologies that I've heard recently. For me at least, that hasn't gotten stale yet, and while others may disagree, I'd rather have stale stories about them than yet another rehash of the same drug debate that has evidently been going on here since the year dot.  

Well, I gather that quite a few folks around here do like that stuff.  I'm pretty sure I am in the minority.  Oh well.  

[Scribbly]

I don't know how many times I've seen this cycle before.  The board sucks, so maybe if we screech a little bit about who is posting bad shit and what people SHOULD be posting about, it will magically get better.  I'm not saying there aren't some valid points, but at some point you are trying to herd cats.  Order the disorder. 

But just for the record, I sure as hell am NOT going to stop posting things I want to post and talk about just because it ruffles a couple of peoples' feathers.  This is a community and we all get different things from this community and give different things to this community.  You can't make, or guilt, people into posting what YOU want them to post.  That's not going to make anything better. 

But nothing you've said implies you think there is anything of value to be found in them.

Well, I decided to start with the one where I got singled out.  But for the record, I like 2,3,5, and 8.  The rest I don't think really amount to much.  Especially the bit about the n00bs.  This place just can't help itself when it comes to n00bs and trolls.  There's lots of bellyaching and complaining, yet, y'all jump right in and feed it.  If you guys REALLY didn't like that shit you would ignore it. 

What you have done is kicked and screamed about Roger and Nigel (again) as though that is somehow more constructive than what Roger did, which was by the way not JUST saying he sees no point in posting any more.

Because whether you want to see it or not, that particular dynamic between those two is part of why, for better or for worse, the board is what it is today.  Look at the Discordianism v SubG thread.  Look at how they snarked at Cram for expressing an opinion.  Why the fuck would anyone want to discuss anything contrary to THEIR opinion if that's the way it's going to go?  It IS content killer. 

So, you've seen this cycle a lot. Do you have anything constructive to add about how we might get around it? What direction we might go in?

Well, for starter, a little more respect amongst users, especially those who've been around for awhile, would be good.  Yeah, it still burns me a bit that I was called a fraud and everyone sat on their thumbs.  It bothers me to see someone like Cram get some snark for voicing an opinion.  Yeah, I know, I know, "Discordia is not nice..."  But really, there is a way for that to exist AND for us to be a little more respectful to each other.  But if we're just going to be a pack of tough-guys, well, you guys are going to be talking to yourselves for quite a while. 

THAT SAID, the lives of the old guard have changed.  We are getting older.  We have new and different responsibilities.  You can't force content.  But, we can look at board dynamics and address those.  Before TGRR or Nigel goes off into hyperbolic hysterics, NO, I'm not saying you have to treat everyone like they are delicate little flowers.  But maybe, just maybe, we can stop right before we go into character assassination mode. 

Or is that too much to ask? 

See, that's a lot more to go on than attacking Roger and Nigel.

I find it difficult to empathise with the newbie thing, because I never went through it. But that is an issue which has been raised. I don't think anyone wants it to keep continuing.

Whether or not we can (or should) soften the board tone is a different question. The fiasco where you were called a fraud is probably the biggest example lately, where that bad feeling got spread out everywhere and actively made the board a shitty place to be for about a week.

It used to be that we tried to keep our disagreements in the individual threads, and approach the content as content regardless of who it came from. Obviously, that can't happen all the time, but I do think it would be better if we could move back towards that a bit. Being able to express a dissenting opinion is also vitally important, and I am also sick of people threatening to pick up their ball and go home if they feel challenged.  

I think point 3 of the OP dealt with this. I think it needs to be taken to heart. If people want non-vapid commentary, they need to be able to have a discussion, rather than a screaming match or a hissy fit.

I guess there's a difference between being 'soft and fluffy' and not going to personal attacks immediately, and perhaps we should acknowledge that?

[AFK]

I have no problem having passionate exchanges on topics.  Lord knows I've been involved in many outside of the drug debates.  In fact, I still remember my first throw-down which was actually with LMNO.  It went on for pages and pages, and was pretty heated, but he didn't attack me personally and vice versa.  We survived and he's one of the posters I admire most on this site.  But where I do have the problem is when it gets personal and posters are attacked personally.  And I'm not just talking about me but I've seen it happen in other fights with other long-time members. 

So I think one thing we ALL can do to make things better around here is to acknowledge that we don't go THERE.  We put 110% into our opinion on whatever the topic may be but we don't go THERE and attack the person.  I think that could go a long way to making this place more conducive to information exchange and content. 

[Scribbly]

I have no problem having passionate exchanges on topics.  Lord knows I've been involved in many outside of the drug debates.  In fact, I still remember my first throw-down which was actually with LMNO.  It went on for pages and pages, and was pretty heated, but he didn't attack me personally and vice versa.  We survived and he's one of the posters I admire most on this site.  But where I do have the problem is when it gets personal and posters are attacked personally.  And I'm not just talking about me but I've seen it happen in other fights with other long-time members. 

So I think one thing we ALL can do to make things better around here is to acknowledge that we don't go THERE.  We put 110% into our opinion on whatever the topic may be but we don't go THERE and attack the person.  I think that could go a long way to making this place more conducive to information exchange and content. 

I would agree with this...

But then there are occasions where a personal attack is well deserved. The two off the top of my head are Babylon Horuv, and Triple Zero's fantastic takedown of Disco Pickle, both of which, in my opinion, richly deserve(d) what they got.

So I think overall it needs to be a bit more nuanced, and nobody should be saying 'no no personal attacks are always wrong always', but some awareness that it may be a contributing factor to the bigger problems is probably reasonable.