10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.

[Scribbly]

I have no problem having passionate exchanges on topics.  Lord knows I've been involved in many outside of the drug debates.  In fact, I still remember my first throw-down which was actually with LMNO.  It went on for pages and pages, and was pretty heated, but he didn't attack me personally and vice versa.  We survived and he's one of the posters I admire most on this site.  But where I do have the problem is when it gets personal and posters are attacked personally.  And I'm not just talking about me but I've seen it happen in other fights with other long-time members. 

So I think one thing we ALL can do to make things better around here is to acknowledge that we don't go THERE.  We put 110% into our opinion on whatever the topic may be but we don't go THERE and attack the person.  I think that could go a long way to making this place more conducive to information exchange and content. 

Khara said it well too:

the criticism ... to take it or give it with any grace or maturity

This, totally this.

I don't see a lot of helpful critique and useful feedback loops anymore. Well, people are really critical, but it is typically served with a side of mockery and judgment, which is pretty much guarantees the rest of the thread is an attack/defense and no information is exchanged.

It's not just Nigel and Roger, it's all over the board. Just the other week I was shocked to see LMNO drop a  (paraphrasing) "YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARD" on our old friend Iptuous over some insignificant difference of opinion. Or that trans kid explaining why he's thankful for his unique reality tunnel, and it turned into LOOK AT WHAT A MAGICAL AND UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE YOU ARE. It's really low quality "discussion", definitely not "jailbreaking". It's hard for me to read threads like that and go "Yeah, these are my people. I want to share all sorts of interesting things with them."

We can all agree this is a risky environment for unpopular ideas. Everything gets so intense and personal and judgmental. Quick on the trigger. If you're wondering why people don't post as much, a big factor is because of the hostile atmosphere. If it it weren't so pissy, I think there'd be more/better threads. It's made us insular.

A snapshot of the problem: Our eyes move in an F pattern when we read a post. (myself included) You read the first line, then you scan down the side, then you go back and pick out the one thing that you disagree with, and respond to that. That's not limited to PD, it's all over the internet, but it's gotten markedly worse here. Recently I've felt like a lot of our threads have the same tone as youtube comments, albeit with better vocabulary/grammar.




tl;dr summary:
           PD in 2011: "Get TUFF, Get ZEN, or GTFO
                                      ... where'd everybody go?"

It makes sense if you think about it;

The site became more about personalities and the people behind the screen, so the discussion became personal and judgemental in a way it wasn't when it was more about ideas in general.

I think Roger's (and others) point about ideas stagnating and we having reached 'consensus' may ring true, on some level. It doesn't help that things seem to have coalesced around relatively depressing conclusions. I don't believe that the future is necessarily one of doom and gloom (although I certainly think we're heading that way...), what I'd like to do, is try and shake things up in myself so I can see ways out.

If I had to use one word to sum up the zeitgeist of the modern age, it is 'trapped'. We're trapped in obligations to work, to our ties to money, in our jobs or lack of them. It is hard to feel completely free, and although we search for our elusive slack, I don't think any of us get it very often, do we?

Maybe that'll be my project for 2012. Curly's Hunt for Slack was fun to write. CAN we help each other find it out there in realspace?

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!

RWHN, pretty much every single post you have made in this thread can be boiled down to "I don't like Roger or Nigel".

So, what exactly do you want us to do about it?

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Trapped is a pretty good way to describe it. Perhaps this is what is the main thing causing lashing out at each other. I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes it feels like it's hard to see the point in doing anything.

And you're right about losing slack. I think Coyote and I were talking about that a couple of months ago, when I mentioned something about scheduling Rock 'n' Roll. Which of course, never worked out.

[Scribbly]

YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!

RWHN, pretty much every single post you have made in this thread can be boiled down to "I don't like Roger or Nigel".

So, what exactly do you want us to do about it?

You're being unfair. I called him on it, he gave a non-aggressive answer which had some actually good points.

Trapped is a pretty good way to describe it. Perhaps this is what is the main thing causing lashing out at each other. I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes it feels like it's hard to see the point in doing anything.

And you're right about losing slack. I think Coyote and I were talking about that a couple of months ago, when I mentioned something about scheduling Rock 'n' Roll. Which of course, never worked out.

That's the trouble, isn't it? We all work ridiculously hard just to stand still. I forget who, but someone earlier said we need to bring the mirth back to Discordia, and I think there's definitely truth there. I'd like to laugh regularly, not just until I'm screaming.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!

RWHN, pretty much every single post you have made in this thread can be boiled down to "I don't like Roger or Nigel".

So, what exactly do you want us to do about it?

You're being unfair. I called him on it, he gave a non-aggressive answer which had some actually good points.

Trapped is a pretty good way to describe it. Perhaps this is what is the main thing causing lashing out at each other. I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes it feels like it's hard to see the point in doing anything.

And you're right about losing slack. I think Coyote and I were talking about that a couple of months ago, when I mentioned something about scheduling Rock 'n' Roll. Which of course, never worked out.

That's the trouble, isn't it? We all work ridiculously hard just to stand still. I forget who, but someone earlier said we need to bring the mirth back to Discordia, and I think there's definitely truth there. I'd like to laugh regularly, not just until I'm screaming.

Looking around, there isn't a whole lot of the regular kind of mirth available.  Our governments are turning into something unspeakable, our populations think this is a good thing, and even the people who should know better spend all their time pulling up planks from the bottom of the lifeboat to hit each other with.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

It's not just Nigel and Roger, it's all over the board. Just the other week I was shocked to see LMNO drop a  (paraphrasing) "YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARD" on our old friend Iptuous over some insignificant difference of opinion. Or that trans kid explaining why he's thankful for his unique reality tunnel, and it turned into LOOK AT WHAT A MAGICAL AND UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE YOU ARE. It's really low quality "discussion", definitely not "jailbreaking". It's hard for me to read threads like that and go "Yeah, these are my people. I want to share all sorts of interesting things with them."

Well, then.

[P3nT4gR4m]

Trapped is a pretty good way to describe it. Perhaps this is what is the main thing causing lashing out at each other. I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes it feels like it's hard to see the point in doing anything.

And you're right about losing slack. I think Coyote and I were talking about that a couple of months ago, when I mentioned something about scheduling Rock 'n' Roll. Which of course, never worked out.

I'm drowning here, and you're describing the water!

Feeling trapped is a perfectly natural reaction to the human condition. Trapped on too many levels to even begin to describe. But that hasn't stopped this board from describing a few new ways anyway. Or framing some in new ways at least. (BIP to name but one)

Thing is it's only trapped if you see it that way. Easy for me to say but that's downplaying how hard it actually is. A lot of the negative crit on this board seems to me like a lot of the negative crit I see IRL. "You can't X because of constraint Y"

Sometimes this is real - You cant fly because of gravity/lack of wings

Sometimes it's bullshit and based on constraints the critic has imposed on themself.

The bugbear topics - Drugs, Magqiweke, Anarchy

The longer the board goes on and the more consensus is enforced by the hooting an hollering the more trapped we become. Eventually complete stagnation is inevitable* All constraints true - nothing is possible.







* no, not really. That's just an example of a false constraint.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!

RWHN, pretty much every single post you have made in this thread can be boiled down to "I don't like Roger or Nigel".

So, what exactly do you want us to do about it?

You're being unfair. I called him on it, he gave a non-aggressive answer which had some actually good points.

Trapped is a pretty good way to describe it. Perhaps this is what is the main thing causing lashing out at each other. I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes it feels like it's hard to see the point in doing anything.

And you're right about losing slack. I think Coyote and I were talking about that a couple of months ago, when I mentioned something about scheduling Rock 'n' Roll. Which of course, never worked out.

That's the trouble, isn't it? We all work ridiculously hard just to stand still. I forget who, but someone earlier said we need to bring the mirth back to Discordia, and I think there's definitely truth there. I'd like to laugh regularly, not just until I'm screaming.

Looking around, there isn't a whole lot of the regular kind of mirth available.  Our governments are turning into something unspeakable, our populations think this is a good thing, and even the people who should know better spend all their time pulling up planks from the bottom of the lifeboat to hit each other with.

So what's the best way to make mirth in these times? And are there still ways to do it in ways that make subtle alterations to the machine?

[The Good Reverend Roger]

So what's the best way to make mirth in these times? And are there still ways to do it in ways that make subtle alterations to the machine?

Apparently, I am unqualified to answer that.

[Scribbly]

YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!

RWHN, pretty much every single post you have made in this thread can be boiled down to "I don't like Roger or Nigel".

So, what exactly do you want us to do about it?

You're being unfair. I called him on it, he gave a non-aggressive answer which had some actually good points.

Trapped is a pretty good way to describe it. Perhaps this is what is the main thing causing lashing out at each other. I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes it feels like it's hard to see the point in doing anything.

And you're right about losing slack. I think Coyote and I were talking about that a couple of months ago, when I mentioned something about scheduling Rock 'n' Roll. Which of course, never worked out.

That's the trouble, isn't it? We all work ridiculously hard just to stand still. I forget who, but someone earlier said we need to bring the mirth back to Discordia, and I think there's definitely truth there. I'd like to laugh regularly, not just until I'm screaming.

Looking around, there isn't a whole lot of the regular kind of mirth available.  Our governments are turning into something unspeakable, our populations think this is a good thing, and even the people who should know better spend all their time pulling up planks from the bottom of the lifeboat to hit each other with.

You're right, of course.

But politics isn't everything. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying these things are good, or even acceptable, but if we just spend all our time staring at politics, we're going to become suicidally depressed. We need some sort of balance, I think, if we want to breathe new life and new ideas into the place.

So what's the best way to make mirth in these times? And are there still ways to do it in ways that make subtle alterations to the machine?

Apparently, I am unqualified to answer that.

Not sure where you got this from, but I hope you appreciate the irony in that you raised issues, people largely agreed with you (though you must surely have expected some disagreement), and now you are getting defensive.

Just saying.

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!

RWHN, pretty much every single post you have made in this thread can be boiled down to "I don't like Roger or Nigel".

So, what exactly do you want us to do about it?

You're being unfair. I called him on it, he gave a non-aggressive answer which had some actually good points.

His post came a fair bit before your post, so I hadn't got to it yet when I replied. I appreciated that you also saw that and were willing to say so.

And yes, I might be being unfair, but to be a little fair for a moment, he's been taking potshots at me for months. If not years. So pardon me if I'm slightly perturbed that he's once again turning an unrelated thread into "taking jabs at Nigel".

[Cain]

"An army that waits is soon an army at war with itself."

[Faust]

So... people with strong personalities, opinions and a high rate of posting should stop?

Yes they should reduce their posting, unless they want to end up on their own posting to an audience that does not exist. No one wants to read endless posts by one person

[LMNO]

I was shocked to see LMNO drop a  (paraphrasing) "YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARD" on our old friend Iptuous over some insignificant difference of opinion.

1. I was drunk.
2. I have a very quick temper when it comes to implications of homophobia.  
3. The issue more or less resolved itself in the light of the next day.
4. Ipt, if I haven't explicitly said it, I apologize for going off the rails like that.
5. Profit?

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Trapped is a pretty good way to describe it. Perhaps this is what is the main thing causing lashing out at each other. I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes it feels like it's hard to see the point in doing anything.

And you're right about losing slack. I think Coyote and I were talking about that a couple of months ago, when I mentioned something about scheduling Rock 'n' Roll. Which of course, never worked out.

I'm drowning here, and you're describing the water!

Feeling trapped is a perfectly natural reaction to the human condition. Trapped on too many levels to even begin to describe. But that hasn't stopped this board from describing a few new ways anyway. Or framing some in new ways at least. (BIP to name but one)

Thing is it's only trapped if you see it that way. Easy for me to say but that's downplaying how hard it actually is. A lot of the negative crit on this board seems to me like a lot of the negative crit I see IRL. "You can't X because of constraint Y"

Sometimes this is real - You cant fly because of gravity/lack of wings

Sometimes it's bullshit and based on constraints the critic has imposed on themself.

The bugbear topics - Drugs, Magqiweke, Anarchy

The longer the board goes on and the more consensus is enforced by the hooting an hollering the more trapped we become. Eventually complete stagnation is inevitable* All constraints true - nothing is possible.







* no, not really. That's just an example of a false constraint.

If I get what you're saying, it's that to a degree, we've imposed this sense of stagnation upon ourselves.

I agree that having some debate and making arguments for and against something would make this place more robust, and generate some interesting ideas, is that the problem is is that they always seem to come back to those bugbears that you're talking about (add libertarianism to the list).

So what else can we talk about that we can disagree about?

Also in response, yeah, the IRL feeling of being stuck is partially self-imposed as well, but I think that quite a few of us have that, and it's affecting us here.

Open Bar is a prime example of that- it became a place where we all just posted the minutiae of our lives, and drained the energy from the rest of the board. We got used to complaining about ourselves and our lives instead of coming here as an outlet, or to find a place to collaborate on stuff that might pull us out of this stuck feeling.