10 Points to Ponder. Or Kill TGRR.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Okay, it's not "or not".

I'm just having a little trouble dealing with the notion that someone I respect doesn't want to be associated with me.

Still cogitating.  More coherent response later.

I don't think I caught any post here suggesting that someone you respect doesn't want to associate with you.

If you're talking about Cram, I'm pretty sure what he meant was that the pointless drama that we often see here makes it difficult for him to connect to Discordia, not anyone specifically.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Okay, it's not "or not".

I'm just having a little trouble dealing with the notion that someone I respect doesn't want to be associated with me.

Still cogitating.  More coherent response later.

I don't think I caught any post here suggesting that someone you respect doesn't want to associate with you.

If you're talking about Cram, I'm pretty sure what he meant was that the pointless drama that we often see here makes it difficult for him to connect to Discordia, not anyone specifically.

I don't see how that makes a difference.  We have failed to live up to certain standards.

Some change needs to take place, at least as far as I myself am concerned.  I do not yet know what that change has to be, so I need to think about it some more.

[Triple Zero]

I wasn't just talking about trolling.  To clarify.

I figured. But trolling is probably the most common outward activity here.

This might be a good idea to riff on. Not everyone's cut out for trolling but would still like to be a part of something.

How can we encourage more activity in O:MF?

Start a thread there on this. I don't have time right now, but I can dump some ideas later.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Okay, it's not "or not".

I'm just having a little trouble dealing with the notion that someone I respect doesn't want to be associated with me.

Still cogitating.  More coherent response later.

I don't think I caught any post here suggesting that someone you respect doesn't want to associate with you.

If you're talking about Cram, I'm pretty sure what he meant was that the pointless drama that we often see here makes it difficult for him to connect to Discordia, not anyone specifically.

I don't see how that makes a difference.  We have failed to live up to certain standards.

Some change needs to take place, at least as far as I myself am concerned.  I do not yet know what that change has to be, so I need to think about it some more.

I can see the difference. It's not a failing to living up to certain standards, it's just a weariness with certain aspects of the board seeming a bit overwhelming and drowning out the good bits.

This thread is a prime example. This is a good thread. But now there's a lot of drama going on now because RWHN said something stupid and didn't bother to complete his thought right away so that it looked like an ad hominem attack.

And you're not the only one who thought he was just shitting on you and Nigel. I did too, and wanted to tell him to STFU unless he planned to contribute to the thread. Because I'm annoyed that these threads always get derailed too. Turns out he wasn't being a complete asshole, but that soured the mood for the whole thread thus far.

And he was defending you, after all. A lot of PD drama involves you and Nigel because someone else always starts shit with you. That doesn't mean the drama's your fault, or hers, nor does it mean that Cram is even suggesting that.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

I wasn't just talking about trolling.  To clarify.

I figured. But trolling is probably the most common outward activity here.

This might be a good idea to riff on. Not everyone's cut out for trolling but would still like to be a part of something.

How can we encourage more activity in O:MF?

Start a thread there on this. I don't have time right now, but I can dump some ideas later.

Ok cool.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

Anyway, I shouldn't be putting words in Cram's mouth, as I'm sure he can explain himself and his posts well enough on his own, and who knows, I may be way off. That's just how I interpreted what he said, and don't consider it as saying that he doesn't want to associate with you. I guess it just bothers me, because you two are friends, and I consider you both friends as well.


For the record, I would like to continue associating with most of the people on PD, including you.

[Nephew Twiddleton]

YOU MAY FIRE WHEN READY!!!!!!

RWHN, pretty much every single post you have made in this thread can be boiled down to "I don't like Roger or Nigel".

So, what exactly do you want us to do about it?

You're being unfair. I called him on it, he gave a non-aggressive answer which had some actually good points.

Trapped is a pretty good way to describe it. Perhaps this is what is the main thing causing lashing out at each other. I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes it feels like it's hard to see the point in doing anything.

And you're right about losing slack. I think Coyote and I were talking about that a couple of months ago, when I mentioned something about scheduling Rock 'n' Roll. Which of course, never worked out.

That's the trouble, isn't it? We all work ridiculously hard just to stand still. I forget who, but someone earlier said we need to bring the mirth back to Discordia, and I think there's definitely truth there. I'd like to laugh regularly, not just until I'm screaming.

Found it.

In fact, I wonder if what the board needs in general is more mirth*. We might be just about all horrored out. The tone is bitter lately, and jaded... and for good reason. I mean, look at this fucking world. But we're IN it, and now that what we've been predicting for so long is actually going down, maybe we need something else to make this an island of sanity in the sea of insanity?

I know I've had about enough of bitterness.










*Not just silliness. Funniness.

[East Coast Hustle]

5: Somewhat related, yeah, I've started feeling like WOMP, specifically, is getting tired. The WOMPertainment thread doesn't get a lot of traffic per post in it, either.

I rather like womping, but it can also be distracting sometimes. Plus, they often take a fuck long time to do. It is a big time sucker, but I really don't have a good solution for it. They're fun as hell to do though. I dunno.

If you have fun doing them, do them.  Just don't do them because it's "tradition" or any shit like that.  I typically go 6 months without WOMPING, then dump a dozen at once.  Likewise, I may not stop ranting, but I am no longer going to rant because I feel its expected of me, etc (funny how you get weird delusions of grandeur, ain't it?).

And Paes, I agree:  The mittens emote needs to die a horrible fucking death.

We haven't been using it correctly for years now anyway. It was supposed to be given to someone who performed a spectacular act of ownage, not just as general acclaim.

For those who weren't around before the great regime change, the mittens emote was originally the "W" in "owned!"

[Nephew Twiddleton]

5: Somewhat related, yeah, I've started feeling like WOMP, specifically, is getting tired. The WOMPertainment thread doesn't get a lot of traffic per post in it, either.

I rather like womping, but it can also be distracting sometimes. Plus, they often take a fuck long time to do. It is a big time sucker, but I really don't have a good solution for it. They're fun as hell to do though. I dunno.

If you have fun doing them, do them.  Just don't do them because it's "tradition" or any shit like that.  I typically go 6 months without WOMPING, then dump a dozen at once.  Likewise, I may not stop ranting, but I am no longer going to rant because I feel its expected of me, etc (funny how you get weird delusions of grandeur, ain't it?).

And Paes, I agree:  The mittens emote needs to die a horrible fucking death.

We haven't been using it correctly for years now anyway. It was supposed to be given to someone who performed a spectacular act of ownage, not just as general acclaim.

For those who weren't around before the great regime change, the mittens emote was originally the "W" in "owned!"

That actually makes a lot more sense now.

Providing that it doesn't get the boot, I will try to only use it in that context from now on.

What about fuck mittens?

[East Coast Hustle]

Okay, it's not "or not".

I'm just having a little trouble dealing with the notion that someone I respect doesn't want to be associated with me.

Still cogitating.  More coherent response later.

I don't think I caught any post here suggesting that someone you respect doesn't want to associate with you.

If you're talking about Cram, I'm pretty sure what he meant was that the pointless drama that we often see here makes it difficult for him to connect to Discordia, not anyone specifically.

I don't see how that makes a difference.  We have failed to live up to certain standards.

Some change needs to take place, at least as far as I myself am concerned.  I do not yet know what that change has to be, so I need to think about it some more.

I can see the difference. It's not a failing to living up to certain standards, it's just a weariness with certain aspects of the board seeming a bit overwhelming and drowning out the good bits.

This thread is a prime example. This is a good thread. But now there's a lot of drama going on now because RWHN said something stupid and didn't bother to complete his thought right away so that it looked like an ad hominem attack.

And you're not the only one who thought he was just shitting on you and Nigel. I did too, and wanted to tell him to STFU unless he planned to contribute to the thread. Because I'm annoyed that these threads always get derailed too. Turns out he wasn't being a complete asshole, but that soured the mood for the whole thread thus far.

And he was defending you, after all. A lot of PD drama involves you and Nigel because someone else always starts shit with you. That doesn't mean the drama's your fault, or hers, nor does it mean that Cram is even suggesting that.

Said it as well or better than I could have.

I have to admit, it took ALOT of restraint for me to not respond to RWHN's initial post ITT publicly, but doing so would have just been feeding into what we're all explicitly talking about trying to avoid.

In the spirit of fair critique, though, it would have been alot better if nobody else had responded to that post either. If we're not going to feed into idiots like DECI4 or Infinityshock's little parades of idiocy we should stick to that resolve even if the poster in question has been here doing that crap for years.

As for the original 10 ideas, I find value in almost all of them, even the ones I might not explicitly agree with 100%, and there are several that I do agree with 100% (or near enough as to make no effective difference).

However...

I am going to draw the line at revising the banning rules. As Cram said, the measures we already have to deal with people like that seem to be sufficient, and the first line of defense, as always, is to just not feed the trolls.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I am going to draw the line at revising the banning rules. As Cram said, the measures we already have to deal with people like that seem to be sufficient, and the first line of defense, as always, is to just not feed the trolls.

Oh, sure.  I didn't expect that to gain much traction, because who polices the police, right?  It was just an idle thought, based on the extremely low quality of counter-trolling we experienced from totse2.

[Cain]

I think the semi-formal semi-ad hoc system we use for dealing with such people we have right now works fairly well:

if its obvious someone is here for no other reason than to troll, and
if they are trolling badly, and
if an admin proposes that they be banned not because of a personal vendetta but because of general suckitude and waste of server space, and
if no other admin can come up with a good reason to object

Then we flush the fucker out the airlock in the most amusing or personally satisfying means to hand.

I believe these standards are somewhat similar to those which will land you on the US assassination list, but I can live with that.

[AFK]

Lastly, I would humbly suggest that there might be a bit of a cult of personality that has developed around this place that makes the dynamics challenging at times.

Whose fault is that?  Should Nigel and I stop posting?  Should we maybe turn the mind control lasers down a bit?  What?  I mean, I'd think that someone worried about that might try to make this the board they want it to be.  I have never used my admin status to enforce my personal opinion, and I never will.  That being the case, there's nothing here that makes me any more influential than you.

It's nobody's fault, per se.  It's just the way it has evolved.  Should you stop posting?  Of course the fuck not.  And I said pretty clearly that I am not suggesting that even if the dynamic could change that it should change.  I'm just pointing out what I feel and what I observe.  If I'm in the minority, which clearly I am, I'm in the minority.  But I'm still going to voice my opinion just like everyone else. 

Because whether you want to see it or not, that particular dynamic between those two is part of why, for better or for worse, the board is what it is today.  Look at the Discordianism v SubG thread.  Look at how they snarked at Cram for expressing an opinion.  Why the fuck would anyone want to discuss anything contrary to THEIR opinion if that's the way it's going to go?  It IS content killer. 

Um, so, Nigel and I are not allowed to an express an opinion?  Or are you suggesting that Cram can snark and we can't?  Or perhaps you are saying Cram can't speak up for himself?  I might have missed it, but I didn't see you diving in to take up his cause at the time.

No, you're right, I didn't.  I wanted to.  In fact I started composing a post and then stopped.  I regret not stepping in and saying something. 

Besides, as you have said at least twice, we exist only for your entertainment.  I fail to see the problem.

Uh, no.  I said I come here for entertainment.  I don't get out of this sight what I did when I first joined.  I don't feel the same camaraderie, I don't feel the same energy.  It doesn't call to me anymore to jump in and produce content.  So, I come here for a few nyuks during down time at work and to hang out with a few spags I like.   

[AFK]

I have no problem having passionate exchanges on topics.  Lord knows I've been involved in many outside of the drug debates.  In fact, I still remember my first throw-down which was actually with LMNO.  It went on for pages and pages, and was pretty heated, but he didn't attack me personally and vice versa.  We survived and he's one of the posters I admire most on this site.  But where I do have the problem is when it gets personal and posters are attacked personally.  And I'm not just talking about me but I've seen it happen in other fights with other long-time members. 

So I think one thing we ALL can do to make things better around here is to acknowledge that we don't go THERE.  We put 110% into our opinion on whatever the topic may be but we don't go THERE and attack the person.  I think that could go a long way to making this place more conducive to information exchange and content. 

Khara said it well too:

the criticism ... to take it or give it with any grace or maturity

This, totally this.

I don't see a lot of helpful critique and useful feedback loops anymore. Well, people are really critical, but it is typically served with a side of mockery and judgment, which is pretty much guarantees the rest of the thread is an attack/defense and no information is exchanged.

It's not just Nigel and Roger, it's all over the board. Just the other week I was shocked to see LMNO drop a  (paraphrasing) "YOU ARE A FUCKING RETARD" on our old friend Iptuous over some insignificant difference of opinion. Or that trans kid explaining why he's thankful for his unique reality tunnel, and it turned into LOOK AT WHAT A MAGICAL AND UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE YOU ARE. It's really low quality "discussion", definitely not "jailbreaking". It's hard for me to read threads like that and go "Yeah, these are my people. I want to share all sorts of interesting things with them."

We can all agree this is a risky environment for unpopular ideas. Everything gets so intense and personal and judgmental. Quick on the trigger. If you're wondering why people don't post as much, a big factor is because of the hostile atmosphere. If it it weren't so pissy, I think there'd be more/better threads. It's made us insular.

A snapshot of the problem: Our eyes move in an F pattern when we read a post. (myself included) You read the first line, then you scan down the side, then you go back and pick out the one thing that you disagree with, and respond to that. That's not limited to PD, it's all over the internet, but it's gotten markedly worse here. Recently I've felt like a lot of our threads have the same tone as youtube comments, albeit with better vocabulary/grammar.




tl;dr summary:
           PD in 2011: "Get TUFF, Get ZEN, or GTFO
                                      ... where'd everybody go?"

You're right.  It isn't just Rog and Nigel.  Everybody contributes to this place which means everyone contributes to the overall dynamic.  As I've laid out before, I humbly suggest a bit more respect for posters we disagree with.  You can vehemently disagree but you can do that without getting personal. 

Yeah, I'm a monkey, I am still pissed for being called a fraud and I've yet to receive any apologies from anyone who contributed to that.  It does piss me off as a long time contributor to this place.  Yes, I still have some animosity towards the particular individuals who participated in that.  But I think the concerns I raised are still valid.  But of course I'm just one small voice amongst many. 

[AFK]

All that anyone is saying is we would like to tear apart the work, without tearing apart the people.

I'm sorry you seem to think that it is meant as an attack on you. I don't think anyone, with the possible exception of RWHN, meant it as such. I don't see how this is such a controversial idea, myself.

It's not an attack on anyone.  It is an honest observation.  I mean, is it really that big a deal to ask people to be respectful to each other?