Bradley Manning pre-trial.

[Placid Dingo]

So wewant people to know Manning is a hero and do something about it while simultaneously completely disregarding that which is being done about it?

Is there a correct answer to this question or is it just an excuse to throw up our hands and give up?

[BadBeast]

I'm surprised the US Govt are still pushing so hard for the extradition of Gary Mckinnon. After nearly 10 years. If they push much harder, I can see a major review of the Extradition Treaty re; The Us.

But I am fairly sure McKinnon will not be getting extradited. In 2002, when his 'offences' came to light, the Crown Prosecution Service was looking at handing him (if convicted) a sentence of anything up to 6 months. Then when the US got involved, it was asking for 60 years.

In all fairness, Even if Mckinnon had been to America, committed the alleged offences there, then flown home, there would still quite rightly be issues over his extradition. But Gary Mckinnon has never even set foot on US soil. So really, in this case, the US Govt should shut the fuck up about it. He's not a terrorist, or a spy. He just bypassed the Pentagon's security protocols like they weren't even fucking there. Suck it up. Then get AVG or Norton to put a firewall in for you.
Sorry for the threadjack.

[Triple Zero]

So wewant people to know Manning is a hero and do something about it while simultaneously completely disregarding that which is being done about it?

Is there a correct answer to this question or is it just an excuse to throw up our hands and give up?

What are you talking about? I have no idea what you're referring to, here.

[Placid Dingo]

The only good I can see here is that a lot of people are aware that he's a hero and that what is being done to him is wrong.  

And they - we - sit and do sweet fuck all.

How is this "good"?

Well, Occupy has been protesting for his release, so not everyone is doing fuckall.  

Well, I am sure the military will back down any day now.

Didn't you know? The Army is TERRIFIED of hippies and will do everything in its power to avoid an open conflict with the unwashed and unemployed.

Sorry Trip, referring to this exchange.

Now I appreciate that possibly peole just want to shit on Babylon (which I'm not wild on but that's quite besides the point) but it comes off as like

-people should do something!
-they are!
-that's lame why would you do that?

Nobody is going to be able to single handedly rock up and save Manning. That's pretty much a fact. Bit there are some things, maybe small things, that are happening, and there's grounds to support those small things and try to promote them into spreading, rather than just adding snark.

I'm always a little disappointed when 'someone should do something' conversations fall into this pattern. Small attempts to make things better are completely disregarded. It's like we've decided everything is fucked and there's no hope, and anything that challenges that premise is disregarded. Now, maybe there's good grounds to believe that, but I subscribe to the idea Dolores promotes in Crams xpost that the only rational course of action is to act as though it's possible to make a difference. Occupy won't save Manning and maybe nothing will but it's a start at least.

[Cain]

cain pointed out on the previous page "the enemy" is never identified as any particular entity.  So, that leaves space open to establish Wikileaks as a terrorist organization.  In this case, Manning's a means to an end.  Is that about right?

No.

The military prosecutors have confirmed the enemy in question is Al-Qaeda.

Also, off on a tangent here, it is worth noting that Manning only leaked "classified" cables.  Ellsberg leaked 7000 pages worth of "Top Secret" rated documents.  Any objective comparison would consider what Ellsberg did was far more serious than Manning.  But Ellsberg is a hero and Manning was tortured and is now being put on trial (Ellsberg, incidentally, is one of Manning's most vocal supporters).

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Fuck these asshole "social engineers" that call themselves hackers. Social Engineering is VERY USEFUL in breaking into companies, but it does not a hacker make.

That being said, I still hve problems with the whole damned story. This guy was trained to keep secrets. Why would he out himself on IRC? What's the likelihood that he outs himself to a snitch? What's the likelihood that he and the snitch meet in a gay chat room?

If it had been a hacker chat room, I'd likely buy it. I know idiots that think chatting about exploits on a hacker channel is a awesome thing to do. However, in a gay chat room... when its the US GOV that you just pissed off? Doesn't seem like a situation where you would mention that you are responsible for a huge military information leak.

IM, Instant Messaging. Not IRC, no chatroom. And he probably gained his trust somehow.

Also I find your remark about social engineering kind of short sighted. And I'm kinda tired of the discussion of what's a "real hacker". Lamo used a lot of technical exploits too, but you need social engineering (aka BALLS) to leverage that into something for real powerful effect. I don't understand why you'd get so worked up about that, it's just a very different mindset than a whitehat perspective, call it a reality tunnel of you like.

And fuck now you got me defending Lamo. I don't want to do that. But I didn't expect "he's no hacker because he did social engineering" from you.

I said it was absolutely necessary... but not on its own. In this instance, I don't see any technical exploits... just chatting with some dude and gaining his trust.

Still seems weird to me....

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

cain pointed out on the previous page "the enemy" is never identified as any particular entity.  So, that leaves space open to establish Wikileaks as a terrorist organization.  In this case, Manning's a means to an end.  Is that about right?

No.

The military prosecutors have confirmed the enemy in question is Al-Qaeda.

Also, off on a tangent here, it is worth noting that Manning only leaked "classified" cables.  Ellsberg leaked 7000 pages worth of "Top Secret" rated documents.  Any objective comparison would consider what Ellsberg did was far more serious than Manning.  But Ellsberg is a hero and Manning was tortured and is now being put on trial (Ellsberg, incidentally, is one of Manning's most vocal supporters).

Its an excellent comparison.

Elsberg was also tried for Espionage and I don't know if the public view of him was similar or different than what we're seeing now. If the Nixon administration hadn't used illegal wiretapping etc. he would probably have been convicted.

Heh, I bet those wiretaps wouldn't have been illegal today.

[East Coast Hustle]

Espionage =/= Treason